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Was the invasion of Iraq justified?

 
 
au1929
 
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 09:15 am
Now that all is said and done. Do you think the Bush administration was right to invade Iraq?If so what were the justifications? Did they knowingly lie to the American people and congress?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,656 • Replies: 25
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JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 10:56 pm
au,

The answer to your question will depend upon the end results of Iraq's reconstruction. If it goes well all the "Parents" of its success will seep out of the woodwork. If it goes south all the naysayers will not commit Iraq to the orphanage of history, but rather throw it at Bush and hope it sticks.

Justifiable? Yes. I won't innumerate the well known reasons. A lot of the reasons seemed to be dissembling after the fact. The main reason before the fact was Iraq was a "real and gathering threat". All the other reasons applied to a number of states such as Iran and DPRK.

I cannot bring myself to say the administration lied to its citizens. Perhaps they deceived themselves somewhat. But then, intelligence gathering in an authoritarian society is difficult and not an exact science. Perhaps they were looking to find reasons to cut the Gordian Knot of Middle Eastern conflict. I am not a Bush apologist but am willing to concede that I am not privy to all the info the administration used to make their final decision. Therefore, I must give them the benefit of my doubts.


All this would seem to argue against the action taken by the U.S. But I feel the answer to your first question is still yes. The West now has a golden opportunity in this area. Europeans are not of the same mind with America on this but we really can make a difference in the area and that, in my mind, makes this effort worth the time, treasure, and yes blood (I do not use this last word lightly, there are many Americans that believe that making the world a better place is a secondary but desirable side effect of defending their country with their lives).

Given my positive take and stated goals on this, the next big question is how are we to accomplish the establishment of liberal democracy in Iraq? That is the meat of the situation so, "where is the meat?"

JM

P.S. sorry for this edit but as this thread develops you might consider importing this thread or its clone for all on A2K to participate...just a thought
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 08:15 am
Yes ... What Mr. Morrison said.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 08:36 am
J.M.
The reason I did not post it in the general forum is simply because I felt I knew exactly what the response would be. It would turn into a bash Bush thread. I therefore posted it on the roundtable to harvest the opinion of those who consistently support Bush.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 08:40 am
JamesMorrison- Agree. You said it much better than I ever could.

What drives me bananas are "Monday morning quarterbacks"!
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 09:27 am
Re: Was the invasion of Iraq justified?
au1929 wrote:
Now that all is said and done. Do you think the Bush administration was right to invade Iraq?If so what were the justifications? Did they knowingly lie to the American people and congress?


Firstly, all is not said and done, we are on but page 500 in a 10,000 page book. I think if assumed outcomes come to fruition, which are stabilizing the ME, creating an example to other ME states populations that there is a better, freer way to live, an economic foothold against the rising economic power of the EU by creating a new friendly trade partner, thwarting terrorist sources of support in Iraq and other lands, then yes it is worth it in the short and more importantly, the long run IMO.

Now, did the we get lied to? I think from our perspective that it would seem we have been lied to, or in the least misled. I think there is a purpose for the way the war was sold because we had to work around the UN and other countries to do what is in our best interest. Like JM said, we aren't privy to all the info that decisions are based on so everything up to now is speculation, sad that it's all in a box labelled 'Lies'.

Tarik Aziz is now saying that Saddam was under the impression that France, Germany and Russia would use military force against us if we invaded Iraq, why was he under that impression? The ties between them must have been stronger than we know, after all billions of dollars were involved, it's a high stakes territory. If that region is of that much importance to them than it certainly is to us. Call it bullying, it's more like someones going to get the advantage, who is it going to be?

I believe our intensions are economic as well as humanitarian, we used the threat of terrorism and freeing Iraqi's as an excuse to gain advantage of an important parcel. You can't sell the war to your own people and the whole world on all the true intensions, it will always be wrapped in a political wrapper.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 09:43 am
Brand X
Am I to believe that you are of the opinion that it is acceptable for the President of the US to lie, excuse me, mislead the American people in order to take us into war. Was It acceptable for Viet Nam?

Quote:
Firstly, all is not said and done, we are on but page 500 in a 10,000 page book.


Unfortunately true!

However, I asked the question based on where we stand and what we now know. Was the invasion justified?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Nov, 2003 10:14 am
I believe that most of the general public cannot understand the depth of what can be gained by such actions. Trying to put long term strategies to the public in sound bytes or even state of the union speeches is unrealistic, and it reveals our interest to the rest of the world. We are in a global competition and I believe it is sometimes necessary not to publicize such goals in certain terms. I don't think any country announces their true intensions without the political wrapper, peel that away and you get to the truth.

We elect these leaders to do what is in our countries best interest, sometimes you have to read between the lines. I don't think anyone in congress are naive enough to think we just went there to depose Saddam and free the people.

I haven't studied all the ramifications of Viet Nam, but from what I do know, there are similarities but that's as far as it goes. It's a post 9/11 America, and there has never been a rising EU before, different measures are to be taken to combat both. Our foreign relations do need to be mended though, we can't be viewed as 'it's us or them', eventhough in geopolitics that's what it boils down to. Bush needs to change the rhetoric in that light even if it was aimed at fighting terrorism, we don't want them to take it the wrong way and drive any important trade partners to the EU's side.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 11:13 pm
Re: Was the invasion of Iraq justified?
Do you think the Bush administration was right to invade Iraq?
"Right"? I don't see it as a question of whether or not they were "right" to do it. To me the question is more one of "Do you think they believed they had a compelling US interest in doing so?" I would answer that question with a "yes".

If so what were the justifications?
Their obligation to safeguard the US, its citizens and interests.

Did they knowingly lie to the American people and congress?
No, I don't think they lied.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 07:56 am
Iraq Said to Have Tried to Reach Last-Minute Deal to Avert
War
By JAMES RISEN
In the weeks before the war, an influential adviser to the
Pentagon received a message: Saddam Hussein wanted to make
a deal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/politics/06INTE.html?th

I have no idea whether the story has any legs. However, if it does, the people responsible should be tarred and feathered. Charged with complicity in mass murder and hung.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 09:06 am
This deal for cease fire was being brokered by a Lebanese-American business man? I wouldn't put it past Saddam to use such a hokey channel for communication, which only adds to his mishandling of hundreds of decisions he made the last 12 years.

Were we to be so naive as to trust any 'promises' this notorious deciever was supposedly bringing to the table, especially in the final hours? I don't think so, that would have been extremely stupid IMO.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 09:17 am
Brand X
It is not a matter of trusting Saddam it's the refusal out of hand that I question. What was the hurry to invade. Iraq was not about to disappear.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 10:32 am
The timing all goes back to the way the war was sold, striking while the iron was hot so to speak. There was an agenda that was going to go forward regardless.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 10:47 am
Brand x
You called Saddam a "notorious deceiver." Which is quite apprapo. I would note that label also fits our president as well.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 10:52 am
I knew you were going to equate the two, you know my stance on why we 'decieve' and it doesn't compare to why Saddam decieved.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 04:06 pm
Re: Was the invasion of Iraq justified?
Scrat wrote:
If so what were the justifications?
Their obligation to safeguard the US, its citizens [..].


What do you mean by this part? Where and when did Saddam's Iraq threaten the safety of the US and its citizens?

---

This in the news today:

Quote:
CIA: No evidence of WMD transfer

Agency has no proof that Saddam gave weapons to terrorists


By Walter Pincus
THE WASHINGTON POST

WASHINGTON, Nov. 16 — The CIA’s search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has found no evidence that former president Saddam Hussein tried to transfer chemical or biological technology or weapons to terrorists, according to a military and intelligence expert.

ANTHONY CORDESMAN, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, provided new details about the weapons search and Iraqi insurgency in a report released Friday. It was based on briefings over the past two weeks in Iraq from David Kay, the CIA representative who is directing the search for unconventional weapons in Iraq; L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. civil administrator there; and military officials.

“No evidence of any Iraqi effort to transfer weapons of mass destruction or weapons to terrorists,” Cordesman wrote of Kay’s briefing. “Only possibility was Saddam’s Fedayeen [his son’s irregular terrorist force] and talk only.”

One of the concerns the Bush administration cited early last year to justify the need to invade Iraq was that Hussein would provide chemical or biological agents or weapons to al Qaeda or other terrorists. Despite the disclosure that U.S. and British intelligence officials assessed that Hussein would use or distribute such weapons only if he were attacked and faced defeat, administration spokesmen have continued to defend that position. [..]

Yesterday, allegations of new evidence of connections between Iraq and al Qaeda contained in a classified annex attached to Feith’s Oct. 27 letter to leaders of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence were published in the Weekly Standard. Feith had been asked to support his July 10 closed-door testimony about such connections. The classified annex summarized raw intelligence reports but did not analyze them or address their accuracy, according to a senior administration official familiar with the matter.

Read on ...
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2003 11:10 pm
Re: Was the invasion of Iraq justified?
nimh wrote:
This in the news today:

Quote:
CIA: No evidence of WMD transfer

Agency has no proof that Saddam gave weapons to terrorists


By Walter Pincus
THE WASHINGTON POST

WASHINGTON, Nov. 16 ...

What a difference a day makes...

Quote:
US 'proof' of Saddam's al-Qa'ida link
By Stephen Hayes, The Weekly Standard
November 17, 2003

Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks and Iraqi financial support for al-Qa'ida - perhaps even for September 11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta - according to a top-secret US government memorandum.

The memo, dated October 27, 2003, was sent from the US Undersecretary of Defence for Policy, Douglas Feith, to senators Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller, who head the powerful Senate Intelligence Committee. It was written in response to a request from the committee as part of its investigation into pre-war intelligence claims made by the Bush administration.

Intelligence reporting included in the 16-page memo comes from a variety of domestic and foreign agencies, including the FBI, the CIA, the Defence Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency. Much of the evidence is detailed, conclusive and corroborated by multiple sources.

Some of it is new information obtained in custodial interviews with high-level al-Qa'ida terrorists and Iraqi officials. The picture that emerges is one of a history of collaboration between two of the US's most determined and dangerous enemies.

According to the memo - which lays out the intelligence in 50 numbered points - Iraq/al-Qa'ida contacts began in 1990 and continued through to mid-March 2003, days before the Iraq war began.
<more...>
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 07:12 am
Don't you think it's odd after all this time this information emerges? I find it difficult to take the information at face value. Not after the falsehoods we were fed to get us to this point in time.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 07:59 am
This is a very interesting statement from the Pentagon, but Stephen F. Hayes, the author of the piece, has said that he stands by the article. Given the detailed nature of the memo and the fact that it was not supposed to be leaked or read by the press in the first place, I conclude that the Pentagon is doing damage control.

The sources indicated in the memo were gathered from a variety of different agencies. This would indicate that we have people in different situations and locations who are providing this intelligence. The more they are publicly discussed, the greater the chance of their being compromised. The DOD would not want to lose such information, so they do have a motive for disavowing the memo and the story.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2003 09:00 am
au1929 wrote:
Don't you think it's odd after all this time this information emerges? I find it difficult to take the information at face value. Not after the falsehoods we were fed to get us to this point in time.

Don't you think it's odd that you question this information, and not the information that says we were wrong? I mean, I question this too, but no more or less than any other story coming out of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
 

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