It's hard not to think of guns these days . . .

Please re-read what I wrote. I have only said I wished I lived in a world without guns, I don't. I'm good with that, or at least I have to live with it. I have not made any attempt ever to stop people from owning guns, but...the NRA and other such organization have made it impossible for me and my ilk to live in a world without them. Why is that not good enough for you. Why must you people beat a dead horse. We all live in the same world, complete with guns. I don't like it but I have to live with it. C'est la vie.
As for the all fantasy situations...None us can ever state what we could do or have done in any situation till the situation unfolds. As I've stated, I'd rather live with the unknown that live a paranoid life.
Again, please re-read what I've written before you try and put words in my mouth.

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@Ceili,

Ceili, let me begin by stating that I have no wish to convince u
to do anything differently. We are only examining the logic
of certain possibilities, in the abstract, occasionally using
examples for purposes of elucidation and illustration.

Ceili wrote:

No David, I didn't refuse to consider it,
but I can't go about thinking about all the terrible scenarios that could happen.
I can only imagine this scenario as I wasn't there. Just as you seem
unable to imagine a scenario that doesn't call for the use of a gun.

I can easily imagine those scenarios,
inasmuch as our species has existed much longer before guns were invented
than since then. In defensive scenarios, 2,000 years ago,
adroit use of bladed weapons woud probably be the best possible choice to preserve your life and property.
There were also slings and archery.

Ceili wrote:

I'm aware people can be vicious. I'm also aware, that you have not thought of any alternatives to a gun.

Well, there are bladed weapons, some of which include metal knuckles,
but the defender needs some significant muscular strength to use them effectively.
After surgery in 2005, I was weakened to the extent that I coud not walk.
Standing up was a challenge.
When I left the hospital, I was thinking that "I better not get into any fights".
It was about all I coud do to remain vertical and walk.

Ceili wrote:

Once again, why did the man sit there, why didn't he drive away?
Why didn't he defend himself? Is there more to the story? Did he incite the violence?

Incite it by sitting there? There was a vehicular collision. Maybe his car was disabled.
He DID defend himself by shooting the fellow who beat him nearly to death.
I suspect that there was an imbalance of power.

Ceili wrote:

You have never, not once in all our discussions come up with any alternatives to gun fire.
Every example you give is always about guns.

Most of the time, in emergencies of predatory violence (which is what we are discussing)
guns are the tools that are most deftly adapted to establishing control of the situation by the victim.
If your life is at stake, it is IMPERATIVE to do what will actually work best.

Ceili wrote:

Many people defend themselves without guns.

Defense from predatory violence is uncertain and unpredictable.
U owe it to yourself to use the tools that are MOST LIKELY to render a successful result.
For this particular kind of emergency, most ofen guns will be
more likely to disable the predator, than other possibilities.
If u are fighting for your life, u need to do what has the best chance to work.

Ceili wrote:

Do you not see this as being a possible outcome ever?

Given an infinite number of possibilities, it is possible. Where does that leave us ?

Ceili wrote:

If not why?
I'm not a tall person or very strong, but my first choice of defense
is to remove myself from a bad situation.

Sometimes, predators don 't want the victim to get away.
Sometimes, thay prevent that from happening;
e.g., I saw interviews on TV of an elderly couple who liked to jog in the woods.
The fellow was attacked by a cougar. His wife had a hard time, watching him getting eaten alive;
thay were sufficiently injudicious as to be unarmed while jogging.

Ceili wrote:

I trust my gut and the little tingles that run up my spine.

Maybe that will work sometimes.

Ceili wrote:

My second choice is always my mouth. Talking, screaming, whatever...

Maybe that will work sometimes.

Ceili wrote:

I've had to defend myself several times but I've never felt the need to carry a gun.
Can you not imagine a time and place where a gun might be unnecessary?

I can imagine it. Where does that leave us?

David

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@Brandon9000,

Follow the line of discussion: you accused me of wanting to make decisions for others.

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@Linkat,

I am not certain that I ever had shark.

As far as tangents are concerned, I have another one: "finning" a shark, then throwing the rest of the animal back into the water to die is an absolute waste. I have come close to not eating seafood . . . perhaps just once or twice a year . . . not because I dislike it but because I feel the oceans are dangerously over-fished. However, if sea life is going to be captured for food, then the whole animal should be consumed.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I am not certain that I ever had shark.

As far as tangents are concerned, I have another one: "finning" a shark, then throwing the rest of the animal back into the water to die is an absolute waste. I have come close to not eating seafood . . . perhaps just once or twice a year . . . not because I dislike it but because I feel the oceans are dangerously over-fished. However, if sea life is going to be captured for food, then the whole animal should be consumed.

Parenthetically, I regard anyone who would do this terrible thing to a shark or other creature as beneath contempt, and would favor severe, severe, severe legal consequences.

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I have tried alligator, crocodile, and shark fin soup
in a Chinese restaurant; no big deal. I don 't expect to have more of them.

David

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@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I have never supported gun ownership. I find the majority of people who do telling. And, yes, I recognize that there are liberals who support gun ownership.

Why does one carry a gun? Allegedly to defend against criminals.

My daughter-in-law . . . five feet tall and 90 pounds . . . said what if someone breaks in while you are asleep or in your basement doing laundry? What do you say? Excuse me while I get my gun?

Presumably in he basement doing laundry would mean she would have the gun on her person and have already had it drawn by the time the intruder got to her.

Asleep would be a bit more difficult. She'd have to get it from the gun safe presumably.

If she could not manage that, the scenario would be much the same as it would be if she did not have any gun.

plainoldme wrote:

In fact, women are discouraged from arming themselves with guns or knives as most men are stronger than most women, meaning a woman could easily be disarmed and her weapon turned against her.

Discouraged by whom? I would certainly never discourage a woman from being armed.

If the attacker is stronger than the victim, that is an even greater reason to be armed. The idea is to shoot the attacker instead of sitting like a scared rabbit waiting to be disarmed.

plainoldme wrote:

But, is the reason for carrying a weapon . . . concealed or otherwise (why is the charge always carrying a concealed weapon? Is a concealed weapon any more or less dangerous than an openly exposed one? The concealed weapon is less accessible. ) . . . defense or offense?

Defense.

plainoldme wrote:

Is the intent of carrying a weapon the intent to kill?

No.

plainoldme wrote:

Is there potential for every gun toter to be charged with intent to kill?

I am unaware of such an infraction.

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@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I have been thinking about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was originally written as a compromise.

What compromise is that?

plainoldme wrote:

I feel the Second Amendment is in error and that it is a cultural artifact, a left over from a time when people had a different attitude toward weapons,

Freedom is never an error. And we modern people have just as much right to enjoy freedom as our ancestors did.

plainoldme wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Well, some of us believe in the Bill of Rights. Once you accept the idea that people have the right to freedom, I cannot see any basis for denying people the right to defend their existence. Once you offer people the right to defend their existence, you cannot deny people the right to the means to defend their existence. There are many scenarios in which a person in danger can defend himself or his home with a gun. Should the government be able to tell people that they must be rendered helpless and that only the government, which might or might not arrive in time, can be allowed to defend them?

I find your logic faulty. In fact, your second sentence is logically inconsistent. First, no one is denying the right to freedom but the manner in which you state this is vague and freedom here means nothing. Then you switch to your inability to see a denial of the right of people "to defend their existence." Existence is not freedom. What?! You then go on to say, "once you offer people the right to defend their existence . ." Wait! You were defending freedom and not existence and who is this "you" offering freedom which you say people have a right to? If you believe that there is a right like that, no one can offer it.

The logic looks OK to me. Free people have the right to defend their existence.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Then there is the whole equal force thing... If you shoot someone coming at you with a fist, you deserve to go to jail.

Depends on the fist. People have the right to shoot people in order to protect themselves from being beaten to death or seriously injured.

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@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

And neither you nor David want to make decisions for everyone? David thinks making decisions for others is freedom.

I've never seen them try to make decisions for other people.

plainoldme wrote:

You confuse freedom with the right to protect one self which is a dangerous proposition: leads to all sorts of far fetched interpretations.

No confusion. The only people who are free are those who have the right to carry guns.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

What a weird world you live in

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

What a weird world you live in

Non-sequitur there.

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In the wake of McDONALD v. CHICAGO, and its progeny, yet to come,
EVERY decent American will carry concealed guns.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

i'd prefer open carry, i'd know who to avoid

1 Reply

@djjd62,

i know that no one i know, love/like and respect would be so dumb or paranoid or falsely macho as to carry a gun.

3 Replies

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

i know that no one i know, love/like and respect would be so dumb or paranoid or falsely macho as to carry a gun.

It's amazing how when people are as ignorant as you are, they always start spewing bigoted stereotypes.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

i know that no one i know, love/like and respect would be so dumb or paranoid or falsely macho as to carry a gun.

In your mind, how woud it be dum ?
( i.e., what is your reasoning ? )

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Ho hum. I can see a reason to carry a foldable shopping bag, a mechanical pencil, a small notebook, a tube of hand lotion. I see no reason to ever carry a gun but, then, I am not violent by nature nor am I paranoid.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

At 63, I have never been in a situation where I needed a gun. As I just told orally, I can see carrying a folding shopping bag. I do and I often need it. I carry a mechanical pencil and often need it. Ditto my small notebook. A gun? Only a paranoid thinks s/he needs a gun!

Why would it be dumb? It's the equivalent of carrying a crutch in case one will need it some day.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I see no reason to ever carry a gun

The reason people carry guns is so they can defend themselves if they are attacked.

And note that attackers can come in the two-legged or the four-legged variety -- I for one have more of a concern with four-legged attackers, but everyone has their own unique situation.

plainoldme wrote:

but, then, I am not violent by nature nor am I paranoid.

plainoldme wrote:

Only a paranoid thinks s/he needs a gun!

Now that I have educated you, perhaps you can abandon these bigoted stereotypes.

plainoldme wrote:

It's the equivalent of carrying a crutch in case one will need it some day.

Hardly equivalent. A gun would be used in the case of an emergency to save your life, and is easier to carry than a crutch. Carrying a gun would be more like using a seatbelt.

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It's hard not to think of guns these days . . .

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