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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2010 04:14 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Frankly, I fear they have made the wrong choice by bailing out Greece


For fear George it is recommended that you call in the cops.

As for the grounds of your fear I hardly think you have specified justifiable reasons other than a casually asserted and somewhat tenuous trace to a failure to enforce the now defunct stability and growth pact whatever that might be other than a confection of words presumably designed to convince your companions that you know what you are talking about which is more a judgment on the perspicacity of your companions than about the arrangements we Europeans make.

I think you are trying to pull your ex-rank.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2010 04:17 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Your visual aid Walt has close similarities with the position in the 30s relating to fascist doctrinal postures.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2010 09:20 pm
@spendius,
No. I was clear that the fear related to the now greater likelihood of a subsequent larger bailout of Spain or one of the other marginal economies vexed with similar problems. I suggested the origin of these fairly widespread problems (large deficits and high public debt) can be traced to the collective failure to abide by or enforce the stability and growth pact, which itself was the necessary bridge between independent national fiscal entities and a common currency & central bank.

Perhaps your taste for deliberately convoluted prose has had unintended side effects on your comprehension.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2010 11:26 pm
I think we can all agree that we spent the next decades money to pay out the banks. The problem is now that any great demands on money, such as several states failing, or a major disaster, or even a little one with major effects duch as the grounding of all european aircraft, and we could be in serious trouble. Our teenagers will be paying for the banks greed well into their late twenties.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 03:34 am
@georgeob1,
I don't know George what any of the following terms mean--

1-Fear.

2-Bailout: subsequent greater likelihood of.

3-Other marginal economies.

4-Origin.

To save getting too pedantic, most of the other words in your post.

I know the newspapers and TV bulletins use these words a very great deal in order to flatter their customers but I don't think they know what they mean either. They are labels and labels are often employed as a substitute for thinking.

A political entity of 700 million souls is not something I feel comfortable waving a limp wrist over in a casual gesture of knowingness and compassionate superiority.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 04:18 pm
@spendius,
Well, today's news confirms my speculation ... far earlier than I expected.

The only "waving a limp wrist over in a casual gesture of knowingness and compassionate superiority" here is coming from you.

I have long found you amusing and even engaging. However it has rather belately become clear to me that you dish it out with far more fervor than you are able to handle it yourself.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 05:02 pm
@georgeob1,
Come on George!! You are starting to sound like Foxy.

I have been complimented on a few occasions on my thick skin and my ability to treat the most vituperative insults in the same manner that ducks treat light and intermittent drizzle.

What news was it today that confirmed your speculation? I understood you to be saying we are fucked and the stock markets bounced upwards like a frisky floozie showing off on a trampoline with the Dow catching the drift.

I thought your refusal to defend your faith was based on your contempt for the sort of discourse you have just indulged in.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 05:08 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
However it has rather belately become clear to me that you dish it out with far more fervor than you are able to handle it yourself.
You mean you enjoy his posts right up till they disagree with you.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 06:15 pm
SO...Europe backstops the Euro with a $1 trillion guarantee program. That should calm things down for a bit, the markets LOVE "Heads I win, tails you lose". Privatizing profits and socializing loses is such a great move *sarcasm*.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 06:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
For the time being, the markets have been pacified. For the moment, the riots in Athens have subsided. Only "hundreds" of demonstrators came out over the weekend, fewer than the 50,000 who killed three people during a violent petrol-bomb attack on a bank last week. But this temporary truce in Greece has been bought at a high price"by which I don't just mean that it was expensive.

Here in front of me, I have a draft version of the Council of the European Union's most recent "decision" on Greece. It isn't a classified document. Bits of it have been in the newspapers; the Greek parliament has already voted to pass some of its provisions; and a similar, though less comprehensive, decision was published in February. But although it's not secret, no one is yet talking much about its political significance. For this is no ordinary piece of Euro-bureaucracy: This is the kind of thing a surrendering field marshal signs in a railway car in the forest at the end of a bloody war.
http://www.slate.com/id/2253498/

We shall see if the Greece citizens react differently than the post WW1 German experience leads one to expect.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 10:31 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
LONDON (Reuters) - Gold surged to a record high on Wednesday as investors sought safety from the risk of Greece's debt crisis spreading to other countries, with demand for coins, bars and bullion-backed exchange-traded funds all climbing.

Spot gold hit $1,244.45 an ounce, a gain of nearly 20 percent since early February. It was bid at $1,238.45 an ounce at 1441 GMT (10:41 a.m. EDT) from $1,232.05 late in New York on Tuesday. U.S. gold futures hit a record $1,245.40 an ounce.

Investor buying this week was triggered by doubts that a $1 trillion rescue package to contain an escalating debt crisis in Europe would be enough to cut the chances of sovereign default in the euro zone.

Gold priced in euros extended its record high to 982.51 euros an ounce on Wednesday, and has risen 28 percent since early February, outstripping dollar gold's climb
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Gold-flies-to-record-rb-3527403272.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=

even throwing $1 trillion at the problem does not convince.....not good.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 10:43 am
one report i watched said that greece needs a major re-haul in the way the citizens conduct business, apparently tax fraud is an inherent way of life, legitimate businesses all over the country operate like cash under the table market stalls denying the economy tax monies in the billions by some estimates
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 10:46 am
@djjd62,
Quote:
one report i watched said that greece needs a major re-haul in the way the citizens conduct business
that is just the beginning, they need to change who they are, under duress. I don't find this likely. I expect them to eventually give Europe the finger and default.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 01:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
not good.


It's not bad for holders of gold hawk. $290 when Mr Bush was first sworn in.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 01:10 pm
Quote:
5. Europe's only as strong as its weakest link: The other downside of a common currency is that it links weak economies, such as Greece's, with strong ones, such as Germany's. The hope was always that the stronger Eurozone nations would elevate their weaker partners. But, as with so many things in life, the weaker element is dragging down the stronger. This creates natural resentment in Germany: The Parliament put itself in political danger by voting to approve that nation's portion of the bailout, as many Germans opposed it. Further, it creates incentive to kick out the weaker members of the Eurozone, such as Greece. That may not be the worst idea, at least temporarily, but it certainly would contribute to the impression that the euro and the Eurozone are increasingly unstable.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2010/05/this_european_debt_crisis_you.html?hpid=topnews

This is a lesson that bleeding heart idiot Americans need to learn PDQ.... If you want to build something good you MUST protect yourself from the weak and stupid who will suck at the tit forever without making any effort to get off of it. Collectives must incentivize being strong and good, when we incentivize being weak and stupid....as Americans have tended to do for over generation now..... the future is fucked.

Europeans should learn this lesson as well, but in my opinion that is a lost cause. One of the reasons why the East prob lead by China is going to be the center of the human effort for the foreseeable future is that they "get" it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Are you suggesting hawk that we should adopt Chinese methods of industrial and social organisation?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:36 pm
@spendius,
Quote:

Are you suggesting hawk that we should adopt Chinese methods of industrial and social organisation
I am suggesting that we take China's lead and start trying to build something, rather than resting on our laurels with an outrageously unjustified high opinion of ourselves, living off of the works our ancestors did.

We also need to make peace with the reality that we are no longer number one, we are no longer the drivers of progress in anything that matters.

Learning mandarin would probably be a good idea too.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:40 pm
HE wrote:
Learning mandarin would probably be a good idea too.

How advanced are you in that course?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:55 pm
@Francis,
Quote:
How advanced are you in that course
I am 48 YO, too old for the investment of time onto a new language to be worthwhile. But our kids should be and are starting to learn Mandarin.

Quote:
Nationwide, there are Chinese programs in more than 550 elementary, junior high and senior high schools, a 100% increase in two years, according to The Asia Society, an educational group. In May, when the College Board offered Mandarin Advanced Placement exams for the first time, 3,261 high school students took the test.

At the college level, enrollment in Chinese-language classes has increased 51% since 2002, according to the Modern Language Association, a language and literature education organization.

Spanish remains far and away the most popular foreign language for U.S. students: It's the choice of 80% of those who study a foreign language in America's grade and high schools, Abbott says. French is a distant second, with Latin and German vying for third-most-popular foreign language.

"But I think what's going to surprise everyone in this next survey we do is how close Mandarin is going to come to Latin and German," she says. "Chinese isn't the new French " it's the new English," says Robert Davis, director of the Chinese-language program in Chicago's public school system, which has 8,000 students studying Mandarin.

"It's not romantic. It's not because you're going to have a great time in Paris," he says. "It's very pragmatic."

That's the motivation of Martha Rios and her husband, Antonio, for having Sebastian learn Chinese, and why they moved 80 miles last summer from Gilroy, Calif., to San Francisco. Sebastian and about 70 other students at Starr King take all but one class a day in Chinese, one of 25 to 30 such immersion programs nationwide. More widespread one-hour-a-day language classes in Chinese also are gaining popularity in schools nationwide.

"My husband read about this program in the newspaper, and we wanted it for our son," Martha says.

Originally from Mexico, Sebastian's parents believe that if their son grows up speaking English, Spanish and Chinese, the world will be his oyster.

"It's for the future," Martha says. "Our families thought it was a marvelous thing. We are using the correct tools for him to succeed."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-11-19-mandarin-cover_N.htm
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 03:04 pm
HE wrote:
I am 48 YO, too old for the investment of time onto a new language to be worthwhile. But our kids should be and are starting to learn Mandarin.

Well, I don't mind learning new languages and I'm a bit older than you.

Fernando Pessoa wrote:
Everything is worthwhile, if the soul isn't small.
 

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