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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 01:22 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Capitulation will occur quickly when money based commerce stops and the Greeks find that no one wants to lend them money.


Or when the EU figures out that the choice is do a deal or have a failed state in a very bad spot...assuming of course that China/Russia does not save the day.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 01:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
Interesting that it seems yet again the polsters are way wrong. In the last few days the call has been around 50/50, but it looks like the results were not even close to that.
0 Replies
 
timur
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 01:42 pm
GeorgeOb wrote:
Capitulation will occur quickly when money based commerce stops and the Greeks find that no one wants to lend them money.
Playing Cassandra, a game that originated in Greece, is a very popular sport for some.

But this will not happen that easily..
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 02:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
That cant be allowed to happen.

Happens all the time. Remember Yugoslavia?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 02:04 pm
Angela's Ashes: How Merkel Failed Greece and Europe

Quote:
It has long been clear that Greece is a special case in the context of the euro crisis. It is a country in which neither the taxation system nor the land registry system works, a country that is so deeply in debt that no reasonable economist still believes that it can ever repay what it owes. In addition, parties that habitually plundered the state ran the country for years. Then came Syriza, a movement that, at least in its radical quarters, dreamed of toppling the system.

Merkel knew all of this. Nevertheless, she tried to fix the problem with recipes she had used in German domestic politics: delaying, hiding and allowing things to remain vague. There was no lack of cautionary voices. Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble has long argued that Greece should be taken on an orderly path out of the euro.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/merkel-s-leadership-has-failed-in-the-greece-crisis-a-1042037.html

Quote:
Since then, the chancellor has gone back and forth. Sometimes she is Numbers-Merkel and sometimes she is Europe-Merkel. Numbers-Merkel sees the Grexit as the most reasonable solution. But Europe-Merkel is concerned about being seen as the EU's grave-digger should she let Greece fall. There are decent arguments on both sides, but Merkel never made up her mind. She left things open


BURN..................


Quote:
Instead, she did what no German chancellor had ever done before. She followed a policy of pedagogical imperialism, with the lesson plan calling for budgetary discipline, labor market reform and privatization. It worked in Spain, Portugal and Ireland, but in Greece, the conditions imposed by creditors were not seen as necessary medicine but as a poison that was destroying society.

Merkel saw what was happening, but she didn't have the courage to face the consequences. And there were alternatives. She could have offered Greece a safe and supported path out of the euro zone. That is the course of action that Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble has supported internally for years. She could also have offered Greece a debt haircut. Had she done so at the right moment, she could at least have prevented the radicalization of Greek politics.

OMG
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 02:44 pm
Quote:
The head of the socialist grouping in the European Parliament has called for new negotiations with Greece in a spirit of "solidarity and cooperation" after returns show the "no" side leading in the bailout referendum.

Gianni Pittella says that the socialists would "expect the Greek government to come back to the negotiations with a renewed responsible attitude."

He acknowledged the international lenders would also have to show a new approach.

Pittella said Sunday that "it will also be time for some member states and ministers to stop with unacceptable rigidity, national selfishness and domestic political games."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/latest-european-socialists-call-greek-193023535.html

They with 190 out of 754 seats in EU Parliament. Merkel has some problems to deal with that much is sure. Some are saying that the next few weeks will define her entire political career.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 03:40 pm
Quote:
Le Pen, the leader of the anti-immigration, anti-euro National Front party, said in a statement that the anticipated result was a victory against "the oligarchy of the European Union".

"This 'No' from the Greek people must pave the way for a healthy new approach," said Le Pen.

"European countries should take advantage of this event to gather around the negotiating table, take stock of the failure of the euro and austerity, and organise the dissolution of the single currency system, which is needed to get back to real growth, employment and debt reduction."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/eurozone-greece-france-lepen-idUSL8N0ZL0TX20150705

So maybe both the far right and the far left are joined in fighting Merkel's EU Bureaucracy. The picture being painted of Merkel being the face of status quo loving technocrats likely come from their hands. They are claiming that Merkels policy failure comes because she is not bright and then listens to the wrong people
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 04:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
Interesting that Merkel believes that she is in a vital fight to save the Euro in order to save the EU, and that we have other high ranking people saying that the euro is a failure. No wonder the Euro is getting trashed on the trading floors.

The greek government might be a whole lot smarter than they have been given credit for.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 05:02 pm
Quote:
A better argument is that the creditors should have had the foresight to know what the austerity they brought upon Greece might wreak. Few democracies could withstand a 25% contraction in GDP over five years, a calamitous growth in unemployment and the humiliation of having endless budgets written by unelected outsiders. Greece’s pre-2008 boom may have been unsustainable and its politicians venal, but that is of no comfort to retirees whose pensions have been slashed or graduates forced abroad to find work. Syriza appealed to voters who had lost all hope. It offered a false prospectus, perhaps a deceitful one. But it was, in part, the creation of the euro zone’s failed policies.


http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21656729-euro-zone-thought-it-could-muddle-through-syriza-it-was-wrong-end-fudge

Nicely fudging that in fact " the creditors" are for the most part the EU BOSSES, the ones who had all of the power till this greek government through a wrench in things
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 05:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
I am jut noticing that the repackaging of the Greece debt since 2011 has had as one of its primary effects to transfer exposure the greek default from France to Germany. Merkel thinks that she can give the Greeks the finger now because she thinks German banks will be fine, before greece could have seriously tested the French banks.

However, there are a lot of other bad things that could happen to the Eu as a result of greece,
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 05:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Krugman writes that, "we have just witnessed Greece stand up to a truly vile campaign of bullying and intimidation, an attempt to scare the Greek public, not just into accepting creditor demands, but into getting rid of their government. It was a shameful moment in modern European history, and would have set a truly ugly precedent if it had succeeded."

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/krugman-greeces-no-vote-win-213032826.html

YEP
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 06:13 pm
Greece got itself into this crisis by persistently spending beyond its means. The other Eurozone countries and the IMF agreed to give them loans totaling almost 250 billion euros. Now, Greece is broke again and demanding more. The people who lent them money before are not willing to pour money into a black hole, and require certain financial reform commitments before giving them even more. Tsipras and his Syriza party were swept into power on ludicrous promises that austerity would go away and were surprised to find that the Eurozone was unimpressed by their campaign rhetoric and was determined to practice responsible lending. Instead of bargaining in good faith to reach a compromise, Tsipras has flailed about with various childish gambits and never seems to understand, despite repeated demonstrations, that he is trying to play chicken with the wrong people. Now the Greek government calls the people who lent them hundreds of billions of euros blackmailers and terrorists because they won't continue to pour money into a bottle with no bottom and are asking Greece for some kind of credible business plan before giving more.

The Eurozone countries do not owe Greece a living. Quite the reverse. Greece owes them. The rest of Europe would be completely justified in leaving Greece to make its own way in the world from now on. Greece got itself into this mess by repeated bad behavior, and the idea that they can squeeze what they want out of the Eurozone by taking their failed negotiating stunts up a notch, rather than making responsible reforms, is self-delusion. What do they think is going to happen tomorrow? The IMF is going to say, "We're sorry. Just tell us how much to make the check out for?"
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 06:43 pm
@Brandon9000,
I don't think their lenders are completely without fault. All the major Eurozone countries insisted on a stability pact, created along with the EURO, which severely limited the average deficits and total debt of Eurozone countries, It was enacted but quickly France, Italy and even Germany found it very inconvenient, and abandoned it, and with it their ability to restrain the borrowing of the weakest EU economies, then prominently including Greece and Portugual. Germany, a very efficient exporting country, does benefit from a shared currency with the principal importers of its products. European banks, trusting the EU to bail them out were too generous in their lending to Greece. These are the points being made by Tsipras and Varaofarkis, along with a lot of silly rhetoric about the dignity of the Greek people, to advance their demands.

Despite all that it is the Greeks who created a sclerotic economy beset by excessive government regulation, employment and social benefits they could not pay for. Generations of populist politicians have bought their way to political power on the backs of future generations of Greek people and the Greeks enjoyed the party while it lasted. Moreover the common currency benefitted Greece as well, confering on them more efficient trade and commerce with their neighbors and better opportunities for European investment in their economy. Unfortunately the Greeks wasted these opportunities with their lack of economic initiative and productivity.


In comparison the fault of their lenders is, in my opinion, very small indeed.
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 06:48 pm
@georgeob1,
Greece was actually starting to show a profit during the last half of 2014 before Syriza came into power and brought the country to its knees.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 06:53 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Greece was actually starting to show a profit during the last half of 2014 before Syriza came into power and brought the country to its knees.


Because it was not on its knees with a 25% unemployment rate and GDP still down 25% before inflation 7 years into the depression. Drunk

the medicine failed.

the doctors failed.

the alleged friends failed.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 06:56 pm
At least the banking system wasn't collapsing, stores running out of goods, prospective tourists scared to go there, and Greeks abroad having their credit cards declined. Greece had the fastest rate of economic growth in the Eurozone in the 3rd quarter of 2014.
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 07:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
You are so wrong about Merkel. She is a lot smarter than many of her contemporaries. She holds a doctorate in physical chemistry and has become one of the best political leaders Germany ever had. She's also the de facto leader of the European Union and Forbes named her the most powerful woman in the world. She didn't achieve all that by listening to others and being not too bright.

She's the only one who can handle Putin and she's proven that on many occasions. She also will find a way to reason with Tsipras and find a reasonable outcome to this dilemma.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 07:12 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

At least the banking system wasn't collapsing, stores running out of goods, prospective tourists scared to go there, and Greeks abroad having their credit cards declined. Greece had the fastest rate of economic growth in the Eurozone in the 3rd quarter of 2014.


Are you aware the economists are very split on whether greece should have accepted the EU's terms? Are you aware that most economists view the EU/IMF 5 year program as five years of failure to achieve the stated goals, or even move towards them?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 07:16 pm
The EU is under no obligation whatever to give their money to Greece. Greece has no right to other peoples' money. If the EU does lend them money, they have the right to set the conditions. If Greece doesn't like the terms, let them fend for themselves in the world.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2015 07:19 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
You are so wrong about Merkel

Have you looked at any of my links of people claiming that she misjudged greece, and that 5 years in she still refuses to own her mistakes?

Maybe the French will talk some sense into her tomorrow. Looks to me that the only option is to spend another 50-75 billion and guide them out of the Euro, which I more than half think was the Greek government goal all along.
0 Replies
 
 

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