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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 04:00 pm
Very hard for me to guess where all this is going as of June 26. The Greek Financial minister is reported to have an academic background in game theory, and from their often insulting rhetroric to the EU authorities the new Greek government does appear to be goading their lenders in a game of chicken. Meanwhile I suspect parties on both sides of the debate are busily calculating the costs attendant to ever changing scenarios for the continued unfolding of the crisis. My bet is that the EU leaders will calculate that they likely to have far more to lose by caving in to the Greeks than by holding firm.

The Greek economy has been mismanaged for years; widespread corruption and tax evasion persists and the current government appears to have no interest in any measures that are likely to stimulate real reform, market competition, or economic growth in the country. Apart from tourism the Greeks don't produce or sell much that anyone else wants, but still appear to have a strong sense of entitlement and indignation that the world is not treating them as they somehow deserve. Granting a stunning victory to such a government would insure its continued political power in Greece and a continued need for subsidies from the rest of Europe, and this may be the core issue here. That could turn what is now a Greek problem into a growing EU wide problem.

Argentina has defaulted on its debts five or six times in its history and has become a more or less permanent international pain in the ass. In terms of natural resources and real economic potential Greece has a lot less going for it than does even Argentina, and as a result, I strongly suspect the EU/IMF folks will reject the Greek demands, letting them twist in the wind as they deal with the forthcoming default.

I believe the world will do fine while all this goes on.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 04:39 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Very hard for me to guess where all this is going as of June 26.

I was reading an analysis that this greek government was elected to default, and so they will. The hope though is that the Eurozone will not be willing to let them leave, so the default will be papered over. IDK, Germany is the only one with money, and the germans want the greeks to suffer for their sins, so I dont know that the German leaders can allow that to happen.

Quote:
Very hard for me to guess where all this is going as of June 26.
Hopeless debt is increasingly a global problem, which precludes the current economic system from continued life.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 04:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
ATHENS (Reuters) - Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras on Saturday called a referendum on July 5 whether the country should accept or reject a bailout agreement offered by creditors.

"These proposals, which clearly violate the European rules and the basic rights to work, equality and dignity show that the purpose of some of the partners and institutions was not a viable agreement for all parties, but possibly the humiliation of an entire people," Tsipras said in a televised address to the nation.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greek-pm-tsipras-calls-referendum-221558999.html

This is an adult act, if the citizens want to default electing a government to do it is not enough, they have to have their hands dirty. A few elected officials should not leave themselves on the hook of history for possibly triggering the long ready to go global depression, and very possibly at least the desolation of Greece.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 05:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
I don't agree. They are asking their citizens to vote NO and abrogating the authority and responsibility they sought when they campaigned for election.

All rhetoric and no leadership or responsibility.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 06:01 pm
@georgeob1,
I take it more as " this is what you said you want, and we agree, now prove it and back us up in a ballot.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2015 11:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
“What do you do when you take over a company that's not doing well? You regulate past debt, negotiating with creditors as best you can. However you tell your bankers 'if you lend me now, I will pay back everything'. You create credit for the future. You stall, you talk as much as possible about the past. And what do they do? The opposite. They say: ' All former debt of Greece will be paid back to the last penny. But for, the future, beware, if you lend money, you risk not getting it back'. So they do exactly the opposite of what the head of company would do when taking over a problematic firm.”


Dominique Strauss Kahn

http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/politics/article/strauss-kahn-mea-culpa-for-handling-of-greece

Good point, and because the IMF and Merkel put their names on the line with the claim that the "fix(es)" would have Greece paying back all of that old debt they cant very well change their minds now. But even when Greece was given all of the new loans financial people were saying that there was no way, as in zero chance, that Greece could or would pay all of their debts. And now that the Greeks have decided that they have suffered enough I dont see how the can kicking routine continues.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 02:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
The default looks locked in. The thing I dont understand is what makes the Greek government so sure that the banks will open the day after the default. They have long been open only because of EU cash infusions, and I dont know why those would continue even if the greeks could come up with collateral, which they cant.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f70c9250-1cde-11e5-ab0f-6bb9974f25d0.html#axzz3eIQZdBVU
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 03:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
In the end, Luxembourg Finance Minister Pierre Gramegna said Greece gave the other eurozone ministers no choice but to vote against extending the bailout program for Greece, a move which sent Athens toward an uncertain financial future.

Gramegna said that "the Greek decision to so suddenly announce a referendum without warning its partners has not only surprised everyone but also shocked confidence." He spoke after two eurozone finance ministers' meetings, one with Greece and one without it.

He said displeasure increased when late Friday, "the Greek delegation left the table in the middle of negotiations when the prime minister decided on a referendum."

"Thirdly, and perhaps the most dramatic element, was the Greek announcement to advise its people to vote against the European package that was not even finalized."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/latest-eurozone-minister-says-greece-194455042.html

Most journalists have been reporting as if this negotiation has been a game of chicken, but it appears that it is time to amend the storyline to either this was an impossible situation where nothing could have worked or that the Greek government was all along driving to a default.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 04:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hard to really know what might have been the intentions of the Current Greek government. They were elected and achieved political power through promises that then appeared unachievable and unrealistic to both their political opponents in Greece and to most informed outside observers. They persisted in these efforts in what appeared to be an unrealistic expectation that their bravado would achieve results, and perhaps the calculation that their EU and IMF interlocutors could be easily intimidated. All that has apparently turned out to have been an unrealistic illusion.

The Greeks may soon have to face the consequences of the reality they have created through a long-term pattern of slecting populist governments that fostered debt, illusions and a sense of entitlement to get elected.

It will be very interesting to see if the Syriza party survives the coming referendum in Greece.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 04:49 pm
@georgeob1,
Tsipras blindsiding Greece's negotiators has to be factored in to any analysis of motive. Allegedly they first heard about the call for referendum as he was giving the speech, as they were negotiating.


georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 05:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
I doubt that Taspiras is very concerned one way or the other about the attitudes of his negotiators, and I don't see how this could provide us any insight about his motivations. There isn't much evidence that he was seriously thinking about the welfare of the Greeks whom he represented either. He achieved sudden political prominence by loudly proclaiming his intention and ability to get the Greeks relief from their situation in circumstances in which none of his Greek political competitors thought possible (and many thought even undesirable for the future of the country). He captured the attention of his EU/IMF interlocutors for a while, but eventually the all-too-evident facts of the situation trumped his theatrics and empty rhetoric.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 05:32 pm
@georgeob1,
Generally one does not eviscerate the deal team (in this case by removing their credibility) if one wants a deal.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 05:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
I would agree with that. Generally a sane, knowledgable political leader would not have tried to upset an economic recovery program that was already showing positive results in Greece and which had already done so in Portugual and Ireland either. Unfortunately Taspiras did both things. Do you have a credible theory about his motives?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 06:00 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Do you have a credible theory about his motives?


If I do not see substantial efforts from the Greek government to save the banks by open Monday I will conclude that the plan all along was to force an exit from the Euro so that they can get out of the mess with a devaluation of the currency. I said several years ago that this was probably the best option for Greece if no one was willing to let them off the hook for their debts. This will also allow for a boom in tourism.

Of course the major downside is the question of if there is enough competence in Greece to run a currency. Another is that they lost a lot of industry and farming when they went to the Euro because they could not compete, so providing goods and food is going to be a problem at least in the short run since they will not be able afford much Euro priced imports. Maybe there is some plan to pull Euros from the tourists.

The fact that the Greeks have recently been very much stonewalling on their resources is another clue, there is probably something tucked away to jump start the new currency and production. I expect that there is a promise of a capital infusion from the Russians as well. Putin would sure get off on embarrassing the Europeans, and I think I heard someone say he would like to use their ports.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 06:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Until Saturday's debacle in Brussels, the ECB bought time to allow discussions to continue, pumping cash into the teetering Greek financial system.

To achieve that, the Frankfurt-based central bank maintained its emergency liquidity funding to Greek banks to prevent their collapse -- and in doing so withstood heated opposition from Germany.

So far ECB chief Mario Draghi has refused to cut emergency funding for Greek banks, but that decision is expected to be soon reversed.

The central bank's governing council is set to hold an emergency meeting on Sunday, and a decision to end the lifeline is increasingly expected.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/plan-b-looms-greece-europe-fall-223637369.html

This might work as follows

The ECB shuts off lending as of Sunday expecting this to bring the Greeks in line. The Greek government then announces a one week bank holiday as they change currencies, making all debts carry over one week. Then with what ever they have tucked away and Russian support they relaunch with a huge lending program to restart Greek production. Instantly the unemployment problem is over, and the Greek government gets the credit.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 06:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
The way I have this playing out is that the Germans insist on turning the screws to the scamp out of moral outrage, only to find that the scamp scampers off with their new friend unconcerned.

I will add that if this is what goes down then the IMF is in deep trouble, they never needed to be much on the hook for the Greek problem, they only did it because Merkel asked them too. How the IMF goes forwards even if they replace Lagarde IDK. Credibility was already a problem, and they then just lost a huge part of their wad.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 06:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
One Greek official told me Athens is not even asking Russia and China for serious money at this stage, telling them it would be pointless. Syriza is already looking beyond, exploring who can help them rebuild after the inevitable default - whether inside EMU as they once hoped, or outside EMU as they now fear.
Russia is not rich enough to rescue Greece. It is in a deep crisis of its own - facing economic contraction of 3pc this year - and risks Soviet-era stagnation if oil prices settle near $60 a barrel. Most of its $360bn foreign reserves are needed to plug holes and to help Russian companies roll over hard-currency debt. Yet it is not broke either.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11523335/Europes-manhandling-of-Greece-is-a-strategic-gift-to-Russias-Vladimir-Putin.html

And while we dont know what is going on in the back room we do know that out of need Russia is getting cozy with China, and long term Russia is a great asset for China as it replaces the US as the global Superpower. I would not be shocked to see China throwing some money at Greece, either through Russia or on their own, in the spirit of ally building and joining Russia in jabbing Europe, the US, and the IMF. China is already on record as promising to replace the IMF when the time comes.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 07:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
On July 5 the people of Greece can decide to stick with the German plan for a bit longer. The one opinion poll I heard about has it that at the moment that is the way the people are leaning.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 09:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
In the upper reaches of the Euro elite, where leaders are forever driving up to summit meetings in shiny German cars and looking grave and self-important for the cameras, where smooth diplomats know that the way to get business done is to do it discreetly with fellow officials, there is no surer sign that a colleague has gone stark raving mad than him announcing that he is going to hold a referendum on matters European.

It is bad enough that David Cameron has decided to put Britain’s future in the EU to the voters. But at least the UK Prime Minister has given warning several years in advance and has enlisted the support of the British business establishment to win his vote in 2017. By contrast, the Greek leader, Alexis Tsipras, announced on Friday that he wants to hold a referendum in Greece on the eurozone crisis on July 5.
In the eyes of the Euro elite, this momentous decision made Mr Tsipras the instant winner of the European madman of the year competition.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11703745/Theres-method-in-Greeces-madness-it-could-pay-off.html
Good point, but is the motive then to make sure that there is no deal, or is it to win at playing chicken??
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2015 12:39 am
I don't think it is generally possible to know the motives of another person. Indeed on high consequence matters of any kind, human motivations can be both complex and variable over time. Greece has enjoyed poor and short sighted political leadership for the past three generations (at least). Hard, in these circumstances, to imagine Taspiras has some subtle long range plan that will reveal itself later. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the real reason for the referendum is he finds he has painted himself into a corner and doesn't know what to do next.
 

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