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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2012 07:48 pm
@High Seas,
That's the whole enchalada; the government borrows money at low interest rates, and they keep borrowing until they fall into the Greek-zone of too much debt for their economy to handle. Governments are the problem; not consumers. Any consumer doing the right thing to save for a rainy day gets his back stabbed with low interest rates and high fees and interest for using banks. The government borrows money almost for free, and bankrupts everybody by spending more than they can collect in taxes. When wall street and the banks goes broke, the government steps in and saves them with billions of taxpayer money.

The taxpayer is screwed "both" ways; it's rape by any definition.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2012 01:33 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
The taxpayer is screwed "both" ways; it's rape by any definition.


It is all rape all the time now that the word definition has been massively expanded to near meaninglessness

Quote:
I assume that Bay has never actually told anyone to “chill” or “relax,” as those are pretty much the most incendiary words you can say to an upset person. Fan reactions were overwhelmingly negative on Twitter and Facebook yesterday, and one of the voice actors from the original 1990 movie even spoke out against Bay’s plans. Robbie Rist, who voiced Michelangelo in the first live-action film adaptation, posted an open letter to Bay on his Facebook, saying that Bay is “sodomizing” the first set of movies and causing “the rape of our childhood memories.” Oooo-kay, Robbie: Chill.

http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/03/20/michael-bay-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-reponse/?hpt=hp_t3
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2012 10:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
One third of Greek land is on sale,” the report quoted Panos Protopsaltis, head of the Privatization Program of the Hellenic Republic Asset Development Fund, as saying.

The organization is offering some 50 billion euros worth of assets for sale, and hopes to generate nearly 19 billion euros in cash by as early as 2015, the report added.

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10795358-one-third-of-land-in-debt-ridden-greece-is-up-for-sale

If I were a Greek citizen at this point I would be saying "**** Europe, we are not selling our nation off in a fire sale at rock bottom prices to pay the banks...**** the banks too".
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2012 11:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
What that will end up doing is depress the real estate market, and those who own homes and property now will pay the piker. It's about supply and demand; no demand, and prices will sink to their lowest level.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2012 11:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

What that will end up doing is depress the real estate market, and those who own homes and property now will pay the piker. It's about supply and demand; no demand, and prices will sink to their lowest level.


Who in their right mind would want to buy Greek land, knowing that as things stand now the plan is to tax the hell out of Greek asset owners in order to pay off the banks? But sell they must, the EU demands it. They will get .1 Euros on the Euro for it.

The plan for Greece is no plan, it is a fantasy that must of been dreamed up by a room full of elites who were tripping on acid.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 12:26 am
Does anyone have any doubt but that Greece is now going to ditch the Euro? They would move to there own currency, and get out of debt by devaluing it, and demanding that lenders take there tiny repayment as payment in full. They will also become the cheapest place by far to vacation, and use that to get everyone employed again.

I was asking years ago if this is what they should do. I also said that the Greeks would not take EU demanded austerity forever, that they would riot. Ok, they did not riot, they used the power of the vote, good on them.
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 09:41 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
If I were a Greek citizen at this point I would be saying "**** Europe, we are not selling our nation off in a fire sale at rock bottom prices to pay the banks...**** the banks too".


The 60's and 70's were decades when revolutionary armies coup the democrat governments is South America like crazy. It was a kind of spreading socialism.

The USA had to intervene to stop this new tendency in those new governments. From the center of this continent, manipulating El Salvador and Nicaragua, and from the extreme South with Chile, the strategy was to change back the political tendencies to become capitalists again. In some countries this US intervention caused their internal wars for years.

But, between the several years of boycotts against these nations with socialist tendencies, the "new revolutionary governments" rejected to pay to the banks the debt caused by the former corrupted democratic governments.

And they didn't.


The economical situation in these countries became disastrous according to records. Even Argentine- a country that never participated in this kind of socialist tendency- paid for the broken dishes, because their economy was also affected because the neighbors bankruptcies.

Slowly but surely, the new revolutionary governments "learned" to survive by creating a "GLOBAL ECONOMY".

For example, it was Peru the first country breaking the political barrier with China. Up to those years, China was completely isolated from the West.

In the middle of the 'Western boycott", this country Peru started to have diplomatic and economical relationship with countries like China, Russia, Yugoslavia...

Other countries imitated this initiative, and even African countries broke the traditional boundaries of leaning only on US and European countries, and everybody started to have economical trade with everybody... at this time... without "intermediaries".

The new government in Greece promises today to take care more in their people than in the imposed payments of their debt.

Against any principle of paying back what is owed, the reality is that banks has already collected with their high interests the whole debt of many countries, and stop paying their debt is not unrighteous anymore.

The lesson learned from the small South American countries changing the whole economical worldwide trade just by refusing paying their national debt, became at the end a positive out come for the entire world.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 10:44 am
@hawkeye10,
You just fail to understand human foolishness
Nobody is as bright as you
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 01:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Lets attempt to not make every thread about Hawkeye MKAY? This one is about Greece. Do you have any thoughts on that subject?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 04:59 pm
@hawkeye10,
When you post on social media, you're the one who opens up yourself to ridicule. Quit your bitch'n until you're able to post common sense opinions, and I can tell you that ain't gonna happen in your lifetime.

You lack common sense.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 06:58 pm
@carloslebaron,
re debt thereare two main points I think. One is the level

http://www.mybudget360.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/total-global-debt.jpg

when I see debt/gdp levels go up so much so fast I am concerned about where the breaking point of the global economy is.

Two: debt is a promise, and when debt is not paid back a promise is broken. The germans and the French are for instance currently making this point to justify why the Greeks can not be allowed to walk away from any more of their debt. But were does the global economic system reach the collapse point because no one has faith that others will keep their word? This very problem was at the root of the credit freeze of 07/08 as you might recall.


What we need to know is were the line is between what can be paid back and what can not, and we dont know this. We also need almost everyone to be willing to pay their debts if they can, and I think fewer and fewer people are willing all the time. At some point this entire enterprise is going to collapse into depression and the death of the current world order. However, predicting exactly when and how this will happen is very difficult.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 07:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

When you post on social media, you're the one who opens up yourself to ridicule. Quit your bitch'n until you're able to post common sense opinions, and I can tell you that ain't gonna happen in your lifetime.

You lack common sense.

you currently lack relevance.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 07:59 pm
@hawkeye10,
You never to seems to learn; there is no line. Economics is always in flux, and no export economist can predict the future: NONE.
It seems you believe you're an expert. Divorce that idea: you are wrong 100% off the time.
Try to learn that reality, but in your case that is utterly impossible.
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2015 10:55 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You never to seems to learn; there is no line. Economics is always in flux, and no export economist can predict the future: NONE.
It seems you believe you're an expert. Divorce that idea: you are wrong 100% off the time.
Try to learn that reality, but in your case that is utterly impossible.


My perception of the crude reality is that printing more money without funds is creating a bigger problem than bringing a solution.

If China and other countries decide to collect with goods instead on money the acquired debt of other countries, the whole system falls.

0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2015 03:16 pm
I guess Greece has 4 months "grace" for paying their debt.

This might be a good sign. Hope they have an "extension" later on, until Greece finds the way to pay nothing at all...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2015 03:33 pm
@carloslebaron,
Quote:
I guess Greece has 4 months "grace" for paying their debt.


Not yet they dont, and it is 4 months to come to agreements that they claim that they want to keep on paying their debts, they now claim that they will not keep previous agreements.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2015 03:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It is only “a matter of time” before Greece is forced out of the eurozone, the former US Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan forecast. The prediction came as the UK chancellor, George Osborne, said Britain was “stepping up” contingency planning for dealing with any escalation of the crisis.

The former US central bank chairman said it was hard to see any other final outcome of attempts by the new leftwing Syriza government in Athens to renegotiate the terms of the country’s €240bn (£179bn) international bailout.

“I don’t see that it helps them to be in the euro, and I certainly don’t see that it helps the rest of the eurozone, and I think it is just a matter of time before everyone recognises that parting is the best strategy,” Greenspan told BBC Radio 4’s The World This Weekend.


http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/08/alan-greenspan-greece-will-leave-eurozone

I agree, but I also said this a few years ago. There is a chance it made sense to wait as now almost all of the debt is owned by EU governments and the IMF, who are probably much less disruptive to stiff than are the banks

http://www.ukipmeps.org/uploads/image/Shares%20of%20Greek%20debt.jpg

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/files/2012/03/Graph-2-mats.jpg

But this question of who if anyone comes out ahead by the last several years of choosing to punt rather than to deal with this problem is above my understanding. However, I am very sure that years of EU lying by constantly claiming "THIS TIME we have REALLY solved the Greece debt problem!" can not be good for the EU, nor the global economy.
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 10:00 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Not yet they dont, and it is 4 months to come to agreements that they claim that they want to keep on paying their debts, they now claim that they will not keep previous agreements.


If they don't pay, the Greece government will be doing the right thing... people are first... corporations and banks are second or NEVER. Lol.

Third world countries refusing to pay their national debt in the 60's and 70's are the ones who created the current global economy free of intermediaries.

Greece must look to Asia, Russia, Africa, even North Korea to start a new economical trade in case Europe imposes an economical boycott against this nation for not paying their debt.

Greece can survive without the banks of Europe.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Apr, 2015 10:38 pm
Odds of Greece leaving the Eurozone are now said to be above 60%, and going up. Word is that the EuroMaster are now cautiously optimistic that they can handle it, and that other nations will not do the same.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Apr, 2015 10:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
While domestic and international observers prefer to lay blame for Greece's ongoing economic plight at the feet of failed leaders, Greek officials are not solely responsible for failing to implement reforms. Greek culture and deeply embedded ideas about the role of the state are also important factors. Every time the government attempts to limit tax evasion and increase revenues, Greeks demonstrate strong antipathy towards paying their fair share. Many resist the notion that they should pay more taxes than before or even that they should pay taxes at all. A long history of ineffectual government has reinforced cynicism about civic community obligations. And this cynicism, in turn, starves the public sector of resources needed to deliver services that could prove it worthy of public investment.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theodoros-arapis/reform-fail-greece_b_7064054.html

No wonder why the German people, the ones who pay for everything,increasingly say of the Greeks "**** them, we want them out".
0 Replies
 
 

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