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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 12:09 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
Check your sources before posting articles like this one, from 2 law professors with zero background in sovereign debt defaults, international law, or even just plain bankruptcy law (domestic US). If they're your basis for your assessment of German politics, you better look further than "Slate"'s contributors.


Quote:
Mitu Gulati
Professor
Mitu Gulati is a Professor at Duke University. His research interests are currently in the evolution of contract language, the history of international financial law and the measurement of judicial behavior. He has authored articles in journals such as the Tulane Law Review, the University of Missouri Law Review and the Maine Law Review.
http://www.law.duke.edu/fac/gulati

Quote:
Eric Posner
Professor Posner's Personal Web Page

Eric Posner is Kirkland and Ellis Professor of Law, University of Chicago. His books include Law and Social Norms (Harvard 2000); Chicago Lectures in Law and Economics (Foundation 2000) (editor); Cost-Benefit Analysis: Legal, Economic, and Philosophical Perspectives (University of Chicago 2001) (editor, with Matthew Adler); The Limits of International Law (Oxford 2005) (with Jack Goldsmith); New Foundations of Cost-Benefit Analysis (Harvard forthcoming 2006) (with Matthew Adler); and Terror in the Balance: Security, Liberty, and the Courts (Oxford 2007) (with Adrian Vermeule). He is also an editor of the Journal of Legal Studies. He has published articles on bankruptcy law, contract law, international law, cost-benefit analysis, constitutional law, and administrative law, and has taught courses on international law, foreign relations law, contracts, employment law, bankruptcy law, secured transactions, and game theory and the law. His current research focuses on international law, immigration law, and foreign relations law. He is a graduate of Yale College and Harvard Law School.
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/posner-e
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 12:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
Yes, I know their backgrounds - unlike you I check authorship and sourcing BEFORE I quote anything. Those 2 professors are wholly unqualified in what they purport to analyse, to wit, the eurozone debt crisis - as I already made clear. They have a track record of becoming the laughingstock of the legal profession (in addition to the financial folks) by trying to quantify how to evaluate court decisions, among other foolish efforts. I'm not going to respond to any more idiotic searches from you - you should have done THOSE too BEFORE afflicting readers with commentary.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 12:25 pm
@High Seas,
I think it's fair to say that you've made yourself something of a Laughinstock of A2K with your wacky opinions, HoT. People don't find your character assassinations compelling, because you've clearly demonstrated that you lack understanding of several basic points of law - and are more than willing to defend murderers and crooks (such as DeLay and the murderous white supremacist bitch who you love) in the name of protecting your ideological points.

Cycloptichorn
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 12:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You had anything to contribute to the topic? No? Why bother posting your infantile temper tantrum here? Address it to someone else if you really are such a compulsive poster - I'm not going to bother reading your irrelevancies again.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 12:33 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

You had anything to contribute to the topic? No? Why bother posting your infantile temper tantrum here? Address it to someone else.


No, it was addressed to you. Specifically to you. Your attempts at character assassination are lame and fail completely; which is to say, nobody finds your criticisms compelling in the slightest, in large part because you fail to ever provide compelling evidence to support them.

You ought to look at the beam in thy own eye, Helen, before getting huffy about the reputation of others.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Dec, 2010 08:32 am
@High Seas,
P.S. This is an interesting analysis of financial crises using "econophysics" (the Carnot cycle in thermodynamics) by a physicist. He reaches the same conclusion on the role of expectations as did George Soros (using a philosophical/psychological approach) on minimizing systemic risk.
Quote:
Surprisingly, our thermodynamic model matches with the conventional model of the financial market based on the efficient market hypothesis. In our model, as in the conventional model, there is no possibility of arbitrage for the great majority of actors of the financial market. The only difference is that by our model such a possibility exists for small groups of actors -- designers of financial heat machine.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/cond-mat/papers/0408/0408560.pdf
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 04:32 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

High Seas wrote:
...what is the legal probability the court will finally agree with them, and - if they do - how will it affect the EU "stability" pacts?


Very small, I think, considering their last rulings.

You were right. The specter of systemic eurozone collapse has concentrated minds wonderfully. Even the UK, no euro fan, admits it:
Quote:
"The winner of the fifth annual Financial Times ranking of European finance ministers, Germany’s Wolfgang Schäuble, could prove a controversial choice. Berlin’s tough stance at crucial moments in the past year often infuriated its neighbours. It delayed aid for Greece and scared financial markets by talking early on about private investors paying towards future bail-outs. On both occasions, its actions exacerbated eurozone difficulties. Mr Schäuble’s proposals for future eurozone governance included an “orderly insolvency mechanism”, anathema to Paris."
---------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5e0f8748-009f-11e0-aa29-00144feab49a.html#axzz17KFqbs80

NB bold added

PS am adding complete article text as FT database is subscription-only for most articles
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finance ministers: The vex factor

By Ralph Atkins in Frankfurt and Andrew Whiffin in London

Published: December 5 2010 19:22 | Last updated: December 5 2010 19:22

Europe’s top finance minister: Germany’s Wolfgang Schäuble

The television talent shows that draw in millions of viewers across Europe put contestants through a series of ordeals – exposure to the glare of international publicity, live performances in front of screaming audiences, and tests of skills and endurance.

They can hardly make relaxing Saturday night viewing for the continent’s finance ministers. A year of persistent and at times acute economic crises has posed uncomfortably similar challenges on an unprecedented scale for the men and women who control national purse strings.

Not only has Europe had to recover from the worst downturn since the second world war. It is no exaggeration to say that false steps by the ministers would have threatened the survival of the 16-nation monetary union, the emblem of economic integration. With budget plans, economic prospects, banking systems and their political effectiveness under relentless scrutiny, some ministers flopped. But some had the X factor – the mix of talent, judgment and luck needed for stellar performances and global fame.

The winner of the fifth annual Financial Times ranking of European finance ministers, Germany’s Wolfgang Schäuble, could prove a controversial choice. Berlin’s tough stance at crucial moments in the past year often infuriated its neighbours. It delayed aid for Greece and scared financial markets by talking early on about private investors paying towards future bail-outs. On both occasions, its actions exacerbated eurozone difficulties. Mr Schäuble’s proposals for future eurozone governance included an “orderly insolvency mechanism”, anathema to Paris.

However, the FT has ranked the ministers on a broad range of criteria. The strength of Germany’s rebound was one of the big surprises of 2010. Europe’s biggest economy is forecast to have grown by nearly 4 per cent in its best performance for two decades. That was not inevitable. Under Mr Schäuble, Berlin ran an expansionary fiscal policy this year, which helps explain a steep fall in unemployment. Contrary to popular perception, the discretionary fiscal stimulus was larger relative to the size of the economy than in most other EU countries.

But Mr Schäuble also put in place an exit strategy to bring public finances closer to balance; and nobody in financial markets questions Germany’s financial standing. The country “was very quick to decide on austerity measures, setting an example for the rest of Europe”, says Peter Vanden Houte at ING in Brussels and a member of the jury of economists that rated the contestants’ skills. Other German initiatives win praise. Jacques Delpla of France’s council of economic advisers describes Mr Schäuble as “bold and inventive” for putting in place a regime for dealing with failing German banks in future.

Methodology

The FT’s ranking of European finance ministers 2010 is based on a combination of three measures: political ability, economic performance and credibility in the markets. In each category, the 19 biggest European Union economies and their finance ministers received a ranking from one – the best – to 19. These were then combined to give an overall rank. The political aspect is based on the opinions of seven leading economists who judged the ministers on three criteria: their lucidity, or how well they understood events; their impact on the European stage; and their effectiveness at home. The economic ranking rests on five performance measures: recovery in terms of gross domestic product compared with the pre-crisis peak; deficit level for 2010 excluding fiscal stimulus; projected reduction in deficit by 2012; change in unemployment from 2007 to 2012; and, finally, deviation of the country’s current account from balance. Market credibility is judged by the current yield on outstanding 10-year bonds, as well as an assessment of how this yield has changed.

The contest produced other surprises. George Papaconstantinou of Greece is judged to have the best political skills of the 19 ministers ranked (some smaller EU nations and those outside the bloc were excluded). He showed panache in his handling of his country’s crisis. Marco Annunziata at Unicredit describes him as “remarkably effective at navigating treacherous EU politics, securing domestic acceptance of unprecedented austerity measures, and rebuilding some measure of investor confidence – almost impossible tasks.”

Erik Nielsen of Goldman Sachs adds: “I give him credit for working through the complex details and designing what was realistically the best attempt possible to address his country’s weaknesses through policy reforms.” Greece’s miserable performance leaves him in only eighth place overall but, if his economy begins to recover in 2011, Mr Papaconstantinou could emerge as next year’s star.

The UK’s George Osborne, a newcomer, also scores highly for his political skill in pushing through a bold fiscal austerity plan. Jacek Rostowski of Poland, who benefited from his country’s strong economic performance, ranks second. Last year’s winner, France’s Christine Lagarde, slips into third place. She wins praise for her skills as a mediator at European level, even if she was overshadowed at home by President Nicolas Sarkozy.

But there must also be losers. Some country’s problems simply proved too great to handle. Brian Lenihan was overwhelmed by the crisis in Ireland’s banking system and the implosion of the country’s economic growth.

Mr Lenihan could argue that an objective assessment of finance ministers is impossible: the impact of decisions taken now might not be seen for years; some events are beyond their control; economists fight over what is the best response to crises. But since when have talent shows been fair?

© Copyright The Financial Times Ltd 2010.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 12:30 am
Quote:
Admission of Failure

Even worse, however, is the situation in Greece. Last year, the European Commission, the ECB and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) assembled a special rescue package for Greece in order to help it avoid defaulting on its loans. But, since then, things haven't gotten much better.

After a year of financial adjustments and reforms, prices for Greek sovereign bonds are lower than they were when the rescue effort was launched, and their yields have reached record highs. Indeed, the country's government has almost the same credit ratings as it did 12 months ago.

This development can be seen as a vote of no confidence by investors in the EU's rescue measures. Players on the financial markets simply don't believe that Greece will be able to stand on its own two feet any time soon. And now there is the risk that something will happen that the Europeans already tried to prevent last year, namely that Greece will be forced to restructure its debt.

Despite all the denials, there is a growing realization that a so-called haircut can no longer be avoided. SPIEGEL reported last week that the IMF is putting pressure on Athens to restructure its debt. And it's not just the IMF that is pushing for Greece to take a haircut: Among euro-zone finance ministers, too, support is growing for the radical solution, which would involve holders of Greek sovereign bonds taking losses.

Last week, during a meeting of the European Commission, European Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn told his colleagues that they shouldn't speak publicly about a Greek debt restructuring, but that a restructuring would have to be carried out in good time. If things really came to that, he said, it would be nothing less than an admission that the euro zone's approach to fighting the crisis had failed, at least in the short term.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,756182,00.html

Looking in: OK, Greece is going pretty much like I said a year ago that it would....no news here.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 09:11 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I assume the player faced with "zugzwang" in this case is the EU. ...... The EU has likely evaded the immediate crisis, but, by adding moral hazard, has increased the risk of a far worse subsequent one.

A year down the line and the original EU - IMF mistake in bailing out Greece - pretending the country was illiquid, when it was insolvent, has finally sunk in. This cartoon of chancellor Merkel and the Greek PM is hard to translate (maybe Walter could help?) but the words mean "Greeks" and "creeps":
http://www.toonpool.com/user/636/files/kriechen_820335.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 09:39 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
the words mean "Greeks" and "creeps":
http://www.toonpool.com/user/636/files/kriechen_820335.jpg


"Greeks!" "Eat crow!!!" would get the meaning perhaps better.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 09:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks, Walter! The other question I have for you is this: how likely are the Greeks to get prosecuted under EU fraud laws? One example from last year >
Quote:
Griechenland unter Trickserei-Verdacht

> (Greece Suspected of Fraud) in FT Deutschland http://www.ftd.de/politik/europa/:haushaltsdefizit-griechenland-unter-trickserei-verdacht/50059100.html since followed by countless others, bring up the legal issue: can the bondholders sue? Taxpayers? Credit default swap holders? Banks?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 10:11 am
@High Seas,
I've my doubts: they started to become an "Euro-country" with (totally) wrong data - nothing -legal- happened ...
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 10:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It's not only that they started out with falsified statistics - this, from the people who invented arithmetic! - it's also they continued on the same course, collecting vast sums in the process. Maybe government ministers enjoy sovereign immunity, but how about Salomon Brothers (Citigroup), Goldman Sachs (13 swaps with Greece, the last ending in 2037, totalling $5.3 billion) Morgan Stanley, and other issuers of Greek bonds? Securities fraud isn't illegal?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 May, 2011 06:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Iceland, Ireland, Portugal, Greece - the Bundeskanzlerin can't save them - she couldn't save her own nuclear power plants. What will you do after 2022?
http://www.economist.com/node/18557977
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 07:49 am
@High Seas,
Perhaps Germany is tough-minded enough to resist putting the disaster in Japan on Ignore and relying on crossing its collective fingers.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 04:24 pm
This may become a defining issue for the EU. A few years ago it abandoned earlier tough rules on the current budget deficits and accumulated debt of members mostly because the principal EU nations themselves found them inconvenient. These rules were originally established with the strong support of a Germany, understandably concerned about their abandonment of the Deutchmark. Now confronted with what may become a spreading contaigon, as well as the inherent contradiction between EU interests and those of various member nation banks (and some in the U.S. as well) they face a cruel dilemma.

The reluctance of the Greeks to face the facts of their long-held economic illusions is understandable enough in human terms, but so is the irritation of the Germans about bearing some of the consequences.

These are tough issues for everyone, and we in the United States need to be mindful of the lessons here for us. We too are finding difficulty in dealing with our own internal social and economic contradictions. We too have unsustainable (but still manageable) levels of debt; and we too appear to be a bit paralyzed between conflicting interpretations of a situation that clearly demands some level of correction.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2011 04:37 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The reluctance of the Greeks to face the facts of their long-held economic illusions is understandable enough in human terms, but so is the irritation of the Germans about bearing some of the consequences.
How can the EU nations bitch about Greece not facing facts when the whole "plan" to save the Euro and thus likely the EU is "delay and pray"??
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Jun, 2011 05:15 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
We too have unsustainable (but still manageable) levels of debt;


They are always manageable when a decrepit older generation can out vote the young and pass the debt to their care.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2011 01:58 am
Quote:
You’d have thought that Athens has virtually no cards left to play, yet the threat its travails pose to the eurozone as a whole gives Greece something of a whip hand. In the game of brinkmanship currently being played out in Athens and Brussels, Greece is not entirely without negotiating power.
Give us the money, the Greeks can say, or we’ll pull the whole house down with us. As Europe’s policy elite is only too painfully aware, the cost of refusing is likely to be infinitely greater than that of coughing up, however politically unpalatable it might seem to the solvent north. Neither the IMF nor the eurozone can afford to let Greece go.
Yet disingenuously, the pretence is maintained that the crisis is no more than a bit of fiscal ill-discipline in the profligate fringe that corrective austerity can easily eradicate.
Unfortunately, it’s much more serious than that, for the fiscal crisis now manifesting itself in sky-high sovereign bond yields is just part of an ongoing and European-wide banking crisis.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/8581092/Greeces-ace-card-help-us-or-well-take-you-all-down.html

It is shocking....SHOCKING I say, that a country that just a few years ago was all too willing to cook the books in order to get into the EU would now refuse to roll over upon the command of the EU.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2011 03:33 pm
Quote:
According to a survey, high-speed traders are quickly establishing themselves as the main force in forex markets
I had not heard that but it makes sense.....I think governments know already that computer trading skews the markets towards the wealthy, the ones who can afford the computer systems and the professionals to run them, but there is no will to do anything about the problem. The only solution that I know of is to impose costs for each trade, so that there is no longer any incentive to move the same money around tens or hundreds of times per day. In the broad sense it is already known that the ease and speed at which wealth bounces around the globe is one of the major flaws in the current global finance system, however those with the wealth quickly punish those behind any effort to reform the flaw, thus preventing reform.
 

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