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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2011 03:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
See also

Quote:
Harvard Business School professor Rakesh Khurana has done extensive research on the value chief executives bring to large organizations, concluding in his excellent book, “Searching for a Corporate Savior,” that it is vastly overstated by executive pay packages.

“I was pretty naive,” he said. “I thought that once the facts were presented and there was reasoned discussion, corporate behavior would change.” Alas, it hasn’t turned out that way.

Khurana cites the old wisdom is that the simplest explanation is often the best one. “This is really a story about power: private power, the power of the economic elite, has trumped social norms, has trumped political power.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/steven-pearlstein-why-theyre-winning-on-ceo-pay/2011/06/20/AGTuiljH_story_2.html
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Jul, 2011 10:17 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I've my doubts: they started to become an "Euro-country" with (totally) wrong data - nothing -legal- happened ...

So legally the Greeks can't be prosecuted for falsifying their statistics for over a decade - will take your word on this, as it's a point of law. The forensic accounting question remains, though, where did all the EU money go? The Greek deputy prime minister, a socialist, has obviously told the truth Smile
Quote:
"...........Theodoros Pangalos, the famously blunt deputy prime minister, put it even more starkly. If Greece were to break with its would-be saviours and launch a new drachma, local banks would be besieged by panicked depositors and the army would have to keep order. “The shops will empty, and some people will jump out of windows,” he told El Mundo, a Spanish daily. (Last year Mr Pangalos irked some compatriots, and impressed others, by saying that ordinary Greeks, as well as the political elite, had wasted the loans and subsidies that rained down on the country: “We ate it up together.”) "

http://www.economist.com/node/18897835?fsrc=nlw|wwp|06-30-11|politics_this_week
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 05:50 am
@hawkeye10,
You've just rediscovered the old "Tobin tax"- it won't work because there's no international tax system. But the euro zone could try the Hamilton plan:
Quote:
"...........After the Revolutionary War, the huge debts of states such as Massachusetts and South Carolina were strangling an already depressed economy. A farmers’ rebellion against rising taxes brought the young nation to the brink of its first civil war. Faith in U.S. credit fell so low that veterans were selling government IOUs for as little as 15 cents on the dollar. ...........Much like today’s Europe, the U.S. lacked a federal executive branch with the power to manage the crisis. But its first Treasury secretary, Alexander Hamilton, had a proposal that went far beyond what anyone in Europe is now considering. His plan: Have Congress authorize the federal government to take responsibility for some $25 million in states’ debts -- the equivalent of about $2 trillion in today’s economy -- and to raise the money to pay them. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-01/will-crisis-ridden-europe-find-its-own-alexander-hamilton-view.html

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 05:58 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

You've just rediscovered the old "Tobin tax"- it won't work because there's no international tax system. But the euro zone could try the Hamilton plan

That has been a topic already - see this report in the Guardian:EU calls for 'Tobin' tax in a move to raise direct revenue
Quote:
European commission unveils trillion-euro budget plan and wants bigger share of its spending to come from tax revenue or other levies that go automatically to Brussels

The European commission has called for Tobin-style taxes on the EU's financial sector to generate direct revenue for its first trillion-euro budget.

Unveiling its blueprint for the EU budget for the seven years from 2014, the commission demanded a bigger share of its spending supplied from "own resources" – tax revenue or other levies that go auto- matically to Brussels rather than being handed over by the 27 member states.

In the face of stiff opposition from Britain, the commission called for much of the budget to come directly from new financial market taxes and a simplified method of taking a share of member states' VAT receipts. "We are proposing an ambitious and, at the same time, responsible budget," said José Manuel Barroso, the president of the commission. "It is a realistic proposal." ... ... ...



High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 06:09 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Even the late professor Tobin didn't think his idea would work because money is fungible - all that would happen is it would move to where it isn't taxed. PM Cameron knows that, as does Wolfgang Schäuble. The French can be dirigistes as usual - but fortunately they can't tax all EU financial transactions.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 06:51 am
@High Seas,
Yes, fortunately indeed. But they are working on it.

When it is perfected and every financial transaction is recorded the experts in the various 'ologies will study the statistics produced and will be astonished enough at the conclusion to be drawn that they will say, incredulously, "Now why didn't I think of that!!"

It's a lovely word is "fungible". Hits it off perfectly. I'm an expert in fungibology or "funging" as I used to call it. I'm a fungibologist of the first water. It's the bedrock of economics in societies where basic needs are amply catered for. And especially where basic needs are so amply catered for that the problems of the surfeit need to be amply catered for as well.

"Oh--but I have nothing to wear!!" is a perfectly rational and eminently logical expostulation in everyday use in a society in that advanced state.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2011 03:24 am
@spendius,
Looks like the end game to Greek default will be over soon, as in before year-end; there's absolutely no way they can cover these maturities.
http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-227446-galleryV9-xmyh.jpg
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2011 03:34 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
Looks like the end game to Greek default will be over soon, as in before year-end; there's absolutely no way they can cover these maturities.
they could not cover it before they cut the economy with public sector spending cuts, and they certainly can not do it after. It is the refusal of the EU to admit the obvious that further destroys their credibility. The EU plan is to piss in our ear and claim that it is raining.....IE "delay and pray".
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jul, 2011 10:59 am
@hawkeye10,
This has now gone way beyond the Greeks - Portugal's debt is down to junk, Ireland's soon expected to follow. Unless Scheuble can win over the ECB the eurozone will end up where we were in 2008 when US credit markets froze; the biggest daily loan then was taken out by Goldman Sachs, we're told today:
Quote:
Goldman Sachs & Co. borrowed $15 billion from the U.S. Federal Reserve on Dec. 9, 2008 -- the biggest single loan from a program whose details have been secret until today........ http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst_tranche.htm

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jul, 2011 11:34 am
@High Seas,
It struck me HS that you might enjoy reading Henry Miller's fantastic essay Money and How It Got This Way. It's in the Humming Bird book and ends Volume One of the Collected Essays.

You too hawk. It really is very funny.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2011 09:35 am
@spendius,
Thank you - Henry Miller was certainly a lively author but the unfolding euro saga currently holds my full attention! As of July 1st gross amount of credit derivative contracts was somewhat in excess of $24 trillion (net is considerably less). Link for real-time updates: http://www.isda.org/credit/
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jul, 2011 05:50 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Except for Gysi and his communists nobody else supports any new taxes for bailouts. Schäuble is the only one with a solution - do you think he'll prevail?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-17/contagion-in-three-forms-now-has-grip-on-europe-simon-johnson.html
Quote:
....Ultimately, German politicians can throw up their hands and say, bluntly: If you don’t like our proposals, you can do something else, but pay for it yourself.

Either way, the result is increasing risk of a debt default and losses for creditors. We’ll see the consequences as interest rates for troubled countries rise and the liquidity in their government bond markets dries up.

Exiting the moral hazard trade is a good idea. But there is no transition plan -- just a series of improvisations, gut reactions and continual renegotiations. There isn’t yet anything close to the political will to definitively end things with a comprehensive solution that tells you who will restructure and who will get unlimited bailouts. This contagion will spread, until senior euro-zone leadership decides -- once and for all -- who is to be saved and on what terms.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2011 07:19 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That about wraps up the Greek default - they hired a New York law firm specializing in bankruptcy; previous clients, Argentina, Iceland, et al Smile
Quote:
Cleary Gottlieb’s new client
Posted by Joseph Cotterill on Aug 01 11:50.

Great spot by John Dizard — an appointment to raise eye-brows:

Last week, it was announced that Cleary Gottlieb, the New York headquartered international law firm, had been engaged by the Hellenic Republic. I believe this tells us a lot about the direction euro area finance will take… the Cleary team working on Greece will be headed by Lee Buchheit, the partner who has previously represented Iceland, Argentina, etc, etc. Trusted by distressed governments, cursed by former optimists with long positions, his is the mobile number of choice for sovereigns that believe they have unsustainable debt burdens.

Now, Greece’s biggest legal task right at this moment is to ensure that bondholder participation in the IIF-sponsored exchange will take place broadly, and voluntarily. Hopefully with a modicum of litigation from investors. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton are an impressive choice for that in any case. They’ve been consulted by Greece’s official creditors previously in the crisis.
.............................................................
So since Buchheit got that bit right, we think Dizard is on to something when he reckons a “Mopping-Up Law” might be on the agenda soon. It’s an idea from Buchheit and Gulati’s original 2010 paper, based on the observation that almost all of Greece’s government bonds were issued under Greek law:

No other debtor country in modern history has been in a position significantly to affect the outcome of a sovereign debt restructuring by changing some feature of the law by which the vast majority of the instruments are governed.

Therefore the Greek parliament could, and at any point it chose, simply legislate to force bondholders into a haircut — credit event triggers be damned! — though Buchheit warned how opportunistic this would look, not to mention the precedent that would be set in Greece and elsewhere in the periphery. Bondholders would have nightmares of the parliament voting in a Law for the Restoration of the Drachma as its next act…

So the authors argued that Greece might instead get bondholders to do half the work themselves, by adding a ‘statutory collective action clause’ to the Greek law debt. That is, an exchange becomes binding on all holders by law, as soon as (but not until) two-thirds or so vote for it.

There’s all to play for as to whether the current financing offer gets the 90 per cent participation rate by September. If it were to fail, a retroactive law change would be messy and there’s no suggestion it would be the first, or second, or third, fall-back option. There are alternative routes, such as executing another exchange. But it is not inconceivable. Not a thing you could trust the eurozone to swear off anyway. Debt crisis is the sphere of logics of consequence, not logics of appropriateness. Greece CDS sellers, bond hold-outs, beware, we would argue.
...............................................................
But again, what price a Greek holdout over that timeframe?

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/08/01/639096/cleary-gottliebs-new-client/
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 12:17 am
Quote:
The report warned, however, that the EU loans package would only play a small role in the long process to Greek recovery.

"Initial analysis suggests that the package would decrease the debt burden only slightly," the OECD said.

"The additional official financial support agreed and the maturity extensions, both public and private, provide the time needed for Greece to continue to implement fundamental fiscal and structural reforms, and for those reforms to bear fruit," the report said.

It is likely to take the Greek government a full generation to lower its debt-to-GDP ratio. Even by the OECD's "best-case" scenario, it would take 24 years for the government in Athens to get its sovereign debt down to 60 percent of GDP, the nominal limit set for EU member states.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15289681,00.html

Shouldn't this result in Greece getting kicked out of the EU?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 03:36 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Italian finance minister Giulio Tremonti has begun crisis talks with Jean-Claude Juncker, chair of the Eurogroup of finance ministers from the 17 eurozone countries.

The talks come as yields on Italian bonds have reached euro-era record levels.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is due to address parliament on the economy later on Wednesday.

Spain's cost of borrowing has also been rising.

In early trading on Wednesday, the yield on Italian 10-year bonds rose 0.19 percentage points to 6.21%, while the yield on Spanish 10-year bonds was at 6.34%, just below Tuesday's record of 6.45%.

A cost of borrowing above 6% is considered unsustainable by many economists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14385636

I smell trouble.....
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 03:39 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
LUXEMBOURG/ROME, Aug 3 (Reuters) - Italy sought European political support on Wednesday as its stocks and bonds came under heightened attack in a selloff triggered by the euro zone's debt woes and fears of a global economic slowdown.

Italian Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti met the chairman of euro zone finance ministers, Jean-Claude Juncker, for emergency talks as the yields on Italian and Spanish 10-year bonds flirted with new 14-year highs and bank shares plummeted.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who has been largely silent, closeted with his lawyers over several ongoing trials, was due to address parliament later to try to calm markets.

"Italian and Spanish bond yields rose to their new record highs. This is a very alarming and scary thing," Finnish Prime Minister Jyrki Katainen said.

"The whole of Europe is in a very dangerous situation," he told public broadcaster YLE in an interview.

Less than two weeks after leaders of the 17-nation euro zone agreed on a second bailout for Greece, Europe's worst hit debtor, and adopted measures meant to stem contagion to larger sovereigns, the debt crisis is back with full force.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/03/eurozone-idUSL6E7J30LE20110803
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 10:57 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Shouldn't this result in Greece getting kicked out of the EU?

They can't get kicked out of the EU (27 members) but they can be frozen out of the Eurozone (17 countries) if the ECB stops accepting Greek bonds as collateral.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:25 am
@High Seas,
My impression is that Spain, with a much lower total government debt relative to GDP, is salvagable, while Greece and Portugual likely are not. The temptation to freeze out the small countries with the least stable prospects in order to make salvaging the situation for the larger members a possibility appears (to me) likely to be irresistable for the major European powers.

Even with this kind of triage, Europe faces a very serious demographic challenge to its prevailing social welfare systems. A solution to the current crisis won't protect them from the consequences of the gathering declines in total population and the ongoing ageing of the present one. The median age of Germans is approaching seven years greater than that of Americans.

What is your prognosis?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 12:59 pm
@georgeob1,
Our aging populations might settle, as elderly people are wont to do, with accepting their degeneration and cease attempting to beautify themselves and providing themselves with artificial supports for their sense of self-esteem.

That will save a few trillion judging by the acreage of shops dedicated to those futile causes although it is obviously not a solution applicable in the USA where it is necessary to be seen to be wonderful.

PS- I hope George that your use of "triage" does not imply that you are in constant discussions with the medical profession. I also hope that it doesn't signify that in your mind a country can be compared to an organism. There's a name for that intellectual error, which is often consciously used for satirical purposes by those unfortunate authors given to lugubrious drolleries, but I can't remember what it is. I'll look it up later and let you know what it is.

It was bad enough when a bunch of highly paid and elaborately educated po-faced idiots listened, at Dover, to evidence, possibly under oath, that an organism could be scientifically compared to a mechanical pump, such as those used for inflating flat tyres, in order to prove that the sexual inhibitions traditionally associated with Christian doctrine are now of no further use and can be safely set aside.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 01:11 pm
@spendius,
Triage is just a word that has common applications outside medicine: more or less the same meaning though.

The demographic changes to which I referred are not unique to Europe, though they are more pronounced there. The USA and China face them too. Our compensation has been large-scale immigration. Unfortunately we have spent ourselves into a corner and, as a result have very restricted options now. Some wish to impose a social welfare system here, much like the one Europe is discovering is no longer affordable there. This would be doubly bad for us because it was precisely the inequality of our system that made us the land of opportunity for so many.
0 Replies
 
 

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