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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:10 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
Our current leadership isn't capable of seeing that


Why don't they make you leader HS? All our problems would be solved in quick time. Obviously.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 06:06 am
@Walter Hinteler,
These are the latest numbers for credit default swaps - most probably underestimating the 5-year risk:
http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/20101127_WOC710.gif

Separately: these issues have been considered by the constitutional court in Karlsruhe for at least a decade (that I know of) and were often voiced by the Kiel economics institute, Schäuble himself, many others; what is the legal probability the court will finally agree with them, and - if they do - how will it affect the EU "stability" pacts? Thanks. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,druck-730375,00.html

High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 06:20 am
@High Seas,
P.S. this is the specific legal point on which I hope you can shed some light (from Spiegel link) esp. on date on which a decision is expected:
Quote:
excerpt
--------------------------------
The Karlsruhe-based constitutional court is currently reviewing several constitutional complaints against the billions in aid for Greece and the establishment of the European stabilization fund, and the number of such complaints could soon rise.

"In the event that Ireland also applies for assistance from the EU stabilization fund, we will immediately file a motion for a temporary injunction with the constitutional court to prevent the funds from being disbursed," said Berlin legal scholar and economics professor Markus Kerber ahead of Sunday's announcement.

He is one of the appellants filing a suit against the EU stabilization fund in Karlsruhe. If billions are made available for highly indebted countries with financial difficulties, the monetary union will turn into a transfer union, Kerber argues. In addition, he says, the government's approval of the fund violates the property guarantee under Germany's constitution, which is known as the Basic Law. "Article 14 of the constitution guarantees a secure, stable currency," says Kerber.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:53 pm
Quote:
Euro will survive debt crisis, German Chancellor Merkel says
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/25/AR2010112503663.html?hpid=topnews

It might have occurred to Merkel that the moment Germany feels the need to affirm that the Euro will survive they prove how much trouble the Euro is in.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 01:19 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
...what is the legal probability the court will finally agree with them, and - if they do - how will it affect the EU "stability" pacts?


Very small, I think, considering their last rulings.

If I'm wrong, however, the "stability pacts" will have to be changed ... if Germany wants still to be a partner in them.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 04:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks very much. Klaus Regling has been taking his road show everywhere to promote bonds he hopes will never have to be issued - there's a general air of unreality to the whole enterprise - but if they are issued they will be rated AAA. How political is the constitutional court? Thanks, have a good day Smile
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 04:53 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
How political is the constitutional court?


The Federal Constitutional Court consists of two senates, each with eight judges, one half of whom is elected by the Bundestag, the other half voted by the Bundesrat. Each judge is appointed for 12 years and is not eligible for re-election.

Wikipedia: Federal Constitutional Court of Germany

So they are political. But experience has proved that they all just look at the constitution ("Basic Law"), with nearly no view through politically coloured glasses.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 10:55 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks very much - actually remembered the composition of the court from back when with the MBB acquisition. But it's more of a feeling I've been looking for - you know I mostly talk to the CDU crowd, and in this case they seem to be speaking for the German majority in wanting to rein in all those profligate neighbors. You know Chancellor Merkel is facing elections in the spring. I wonder what the old chancellor is telling her - it wouldn't be proper for him to speak publicly, of course, but from people who were there I know he yelled at her for her handling of the debt crisis. I'm due for another long flight and I'm thinking of taking the correspondence of Bismarck. Putin is coming to visit with visions of a "Wirtschaftsgemeinschaft von Lissabon bis Wladiwostok", wonder how Merkel can turn whatever it is he's offering to Germany's advantage. Will let you know if I find anything in those old letters Smile
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 11:40 am
@High Seas,
Bismark's reputation for an addiction to a certain type of behaviour has caused his name to be used as a euphemism for it.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 12:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Kohl certainly is able to see the truth in the last paragraph in this article - as is Schaeuble. I hope they can convince Chancellor Merkel - soon.
Quote:
Will Ireland Default? Ask Belgium

with 19 comments

By Simon Johnson

On the face of it, Ireland seems poised on the brink of default. Its debts are very large relative to the size of its economy, most of this money is owed to foreigners and – unless there is an unexpected growth miracle – the country will struggle to pay its debts in full for many years to come.

Yet all the indications are that, as part of the historic rescue package to be introduced this week by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund, Ireland will not default on or otherwise restructure its most substantial debts. Why not?

To be clear, Ireland owes a huge amount of money to the outside world. In the best scenario, Ireland’s government debt is likely to stabilize at more than 100 percent of gross national product (G. N. P.); in the worst scenario, with greater real estate losses and a deeper recession, this level could reach 150 percent.

That’s a higher number than you see in many news reports, in part because officials are still focused on gross domestic product, a misleading statistic in the Irish case, as Peter Boone and I have been arguing in this space for some time. (Update: some news reports are currently using a higher number for Ireland’s debt, implying that the country owes 10 times its GDP; this is based on misreading the statistics regarding off-shore financial transactions that are run through Ireland. This misunderstanding will be cleared up when the Ireland-IMF-EU package is announced.)

At least 20 percent of Ireland’s G.D.P. is from “ghost corporations” that have little or no real activity in Ireland. Corporate taxes are set at 12.5 percent, but leading global corporations are able to construct complicated schemes involving other offshore tax havens that reduce their effective tax rates to the low single digits.

The Irish insist that raising the corporate tax rate would not generate additional revenue – effectively acknowledging the point that this part of the economy cannot be taxed as part of the anti-crisis policy mix. You will know that reality has finally set in when all the relevant numbers are presented relative to G.N.P., not G.D.P.

After the I.M.F. finishes going through the Irish books, we will all need to redo our projections (remember the data revisions that came to light in Greece under similar circumstances). But for now we stand by our previous assessment regarding the likely trajectory of Irish budget deficits – in the region of 10 to 15 percent of G.N.P. for this year and next.

So why not restructure some of this debt, particularly as much of what the government will owe is actually debt taken on by overgrown and careless Irish banks?

The government has indicated that it will force a restructuring of some subordinated, relatively junior debt – for at least for one prominent bank, Anglo Irish, this may amount to paying 20 cents in the euro. This debt by itself is too small to make a difference, but why not apply the same principle to other categories of borrowings?

The most obvious answer is: Ireland’s European partners do not want this to happen, because it would expose the really bad decisions made by pan-European banks and their regulators over the last decade and create potential fiscal risks in other euro-zone countries.

Jacob Kirkegaard, my colleague at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, points out that the claims of foreign banks (in the 24 countries reporting to the Bank for International Settlements) on Ireland “are at over $500 billion — three times the scale of total claims against Greece.” (The underlying BIS data he uses can be seen here: http://www.bis.org/statistics/provbstats.pdf#page=90; start on p.90.)

German banks in particular lost their composure with regard to lending to Ireland – although British, American, French and Belgian banks were not so far behind. Hypo Real Estate – now taken over by the German government – has what is likely to be the highest exposure to Irish debt.

But look at loans outstanding relative to the size of their domestic economies (using the BIS data on what they call an “ultimate risk basis”).

German banks are owed $139 billion, which is 4.2 percent of German G.D.P. British banks are owed $131 billion, or about 5 percent of Britain’s G.D.P. French banks are owed $43.5 billion, which is approaching 2 percent of French G.D.P. But the eye-catching numbers are for Belgium, which is owed $29 billion – in the relatively small Belgian economy, this accounts for around 5 percent of G.D.P.

Given the prevalence of off-shore banking in Ireland, these numbers may overstate the true liabilities. But still, Belgium is already on the hook, according to the Bank for International Settlements, for 18.3 percent of G.D.P. as a result of “general government contingent liabilities arising from ‘crisis assistance’ to financial institutions” (again, see Jacob’s note.) The last thing it – or the rest of the euro-zone – needs is a fiscal crisis arising from commitments to support its banks after an Irish default.

Belgium’s overall fiscal picture is not good, its political stability is far from assured and its underlying social fissures would surely not be helped by a further dose of severe austerity. (According to Eurostat’s latest numbers, the Belgian budget deficit was 6 percent of G.D.P. in 2009 and its debt was 96.2 percent of G.D.P. at the end of last year; to be fair, Belgium has an established tradition of being able to survive with high debt levels.)

In addition, Ireland’s European creditors reckon, if they can just hold on for a few years, perhaps there will be a recovery in asset values. But real estate prices rose dramatically in Ireland over the last decade – quadrupling by some measures. And fiscal contraction – either higher taxes or lower government spending or both, as negotiated with the I.M.F. and E.U. – is unlikely to help the residential real estate market (so far most of the damage has been in commercial real estate.)

It is true that Irish mortgages are “recourse” — that is, you can’t just turn in the keys and walk away from a property as you can in many parts of the United States. On the other hand, Irish residents can leave the country – moving to Britain or the United States is a well-established tradition for many families. And how can an Irish lender enforce debts when someone has emigrated?

Eventually, Ireland will need to restructure its debts. How soon and how completely it does this will have major implications for the rest of Europe.

Many countries were exposed to the potato blight of the 1840s – it was a global affliction — but Ireland was unusually dependent on this one crop (a phenomenon known as monoculture). The result was famine and emigration; the population never returned to its pre-1840s level.

Many countries experienced debt-based property booms over the last decade fueled, in part, by reckless cross-border lending. Ireland again proved to have something of a monoculture; this is the origin of its extreme vulnerability and an awful decade to come.

This time, will the global disease continue to spread as banks elsewhere get bailouts that allow them to become even bigger and more dangerous? Will we see immediate ramifications in other euro-zone countries, such as Belgium or others?

And will the same underlying problem continue to grow in such a way that it can ultimately bring down the United States – as Peter Boone and I suggested here in March?
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 02:34 pm
@High Seas,
You can't expect Irishmen to turn down offers of loans. Anybody who has been to the Cheltenham Festival of National Hunt racing would know that. Or if they had read James Joyce.

If an electorate gives power on the basis of who offers the most goodies it's probably inevitable. Politicians probably figure they can get a nest egg out of it and then disappear when the music stops.

Like in evolution, it's self correcting and the pain is neither here nor there. It's our own fault for electing carpetbaggers. It's the way of the world.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 02:44 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Like in evolution, it's self correcting and the pain is neither here nor there.
I dont think so, we see patterns of failure and success in places which can not be explained...which must have to do with something that either we dont see or dont understand. In the case of the Irish the pattern is of suffering at the hands of others, be it the British or the corporate class. The expectation, based upon pattern,is that the Irish will continue to take their beatings like troopers, that there will be no correction.

If this collapse gets to Spain though forget about it....the Spanish will not willingly take it in the ass like the Irish do, they will resist. The melt-down reaching Spain means at least the failure of the Euro, and possibly of the EU.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 03:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
There are many here who would welcome that hawk.

There are other factors though.

One thing I was partially explaining is that what we don't see or don't understand is that it is our own fault. Media can't get enough of blaming every other institution and encouraging us to do the same. Which we don't need much encouraging to do.

A pal of mine (retired) has all his money in a Spanish bank. He just wouldn't have it that he was taking a risk getting 3% more than I was getting. I was a mug he said. He has to give six months notice. Do you think he's in the **** hawk?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 26 Nov, 2010 04:20 pm
One only need look at NFL teams' chosen names to see a subtext just as people used to look at Coats of Arms to see a family attitude. Compare NFL franchise names to English Premier League ones. And the sound the crowd makes is different to that we get during a match.

Maybe the prey are more difficult of access these days.

Animal symbolism is common to most nations as representing it's zietgeist.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Nov, 2010 11:22 am
@georgeob1,
There's another important difference between the US and EU/euro economies: US integration of labor and credit markets is far more advanced.
http://www.currentintelligence.net/reviews/2010/11/25/barry-eichengreen-on-the-euro.html
Quote:
SR: Would you say Europe meets Robert Mundell’s optimum currency area criteria?

BE: The euro area is not an optimum currency area in the sense of the members experiencing the same economic shocks. Europe doesn’t have as much labour mobility as it might. It doesn’t have the kind of fiscal transfers that Professor Mundell, when he developed the theory, pointed to as important.

But I don’t think the question of whether a collection of states satisfying the optimum currency area criteria admits of a simple yes or no answer. The US may be closer than Europe to satisfying Professor Mundell’s criteria, but even it falls short of being a true optimum currency area. Consider the limits of fiscal federalism in the United States. Look how the budgets of certain states disproportionately constrained. Look at how the so-called sand states – California, Arizona, New Mexico and Florida – suffered much bigger shocks than the rest of the country in 2008-9.
.......
I do think the German idea that you can’t only have bailouts or emergency financial assistance when a country’s debt is unsustainable makes a lot of sense. Europe needs a mechanism for restructuring and rescheduling unsustainable sovereign debts.

0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2010 02:11 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
link: http://www.economist.com/node/17577107

".....Chancellor Angela Merkel and her finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, are keenly aware of German voters’ resentment of euro bail-outs. They are also uneasily conscious of the German constitutional court, which endorsed European economic and monetary union prescribed in the 1992 Maastricht treaty only on the basis of the treaty’s no-bail-out provisions. For these reasons, Mrs Merkel and Mr Schäuble are continuing to insist on two proposals.

One is that the EU treaties must be amended to give permanent status to the European Financial Stability Facility. Without this, they say, the rescue fund will expire in 2013. But investors know from experience that treaty amendment is neither simple nor quick (it took years to push through the Lisbon treaty). Insistence on treaty change makes them nervous.

So, even more, does the second German demand: that future bail-outs must include debt-restructuring provisions to impose some losses (“haircuts”) on investors. This is an understandable, even desirable, idea—if investors never lost money on sovereign bonds, why bother to distinguish among countries according to their credit rating? But it was Mrs Merkel’s vague public touting of the idea that set off the latest bout of nerves. ......"
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 02:48 pm
@High Seas,
P.S. to Walter: the lawyer quoted in this new article represented Argentina, Iraq, etc, when they defaulted - it's his opinion (which I've reason to believe finds a receptive ear in Berlin) that the sound money euro countries should jettison the weak peripheral ones as so much deadweight and move on:
Quote:
http://www.economist.com/node/17629745?story_ID=17629745&fsrc=nlw|wwp|12-02-2010|politics_this_week
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"“The speculation on international financial markets can’t be explained rationally at all,” declared Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister.
.......................
Lee Buchheit of Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton in New York argues that countries could change their laws on domestic bonds to impose collective-action clauses retroactively.

All this makes restructuring more likely."
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 02:06 am
Quote:
The debt crisis in Europe presents a big political problem: Wealthy countries, chiefly Germany, must either agree to subsidize poor countries or abandon the euro so that Greece, Ireland, and other countries on the verge of default can reduce their debt payments by devaluing their currencies. The first option is politically explosive; the second is politically catastrophic. To duck this unwelcome choice, heads of government like German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy have proposed a variety of legal mechanisms that sound new and enticing. But these proposals are a smoke screen. The reality is that the necessary legal tools already exist, and they're not being used because they would actually make the crisis worse.
http://www.slate.com/id/2276587/
What WILL the Germans do has been a question at the top of my mind for awhile. They dont have the ability to kick the can down the road for much longer, at some point they are going to have to decide if the Euro and/or EU dream is over for now. The option is to go the poor house supporting their neighbors. The Germans as still so traumatized by Nazism and their guilt for Hitler that the choice is not clear.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 11:33 am
@hawkeye10,
Check your sources before posting articles like this one, from 2 law professors with zero background in sovereign debt defaults, international law, or even just plain bankruptcy law (domestic US). If they're your basis for your assessment of German politics, you better look further than "Slate"'s contributors.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 12:04 pm
@High Seas,
P.S. anybody interested (unlike the aforementioned contributors to Slate) in an introductory (though somewhat quantitative) analysis of this euro-zone government debt crisis (as distinct from either liquidity or monetary crises) can look up this article (sorry no link available):
Quote:
What can EMU countries' sovereign bond spreads tell us about market perceptions of default probabilities during the recent financial crisis?

Dotz, Niko; Fischer, Christoph
2010
Deutsche Bundesbank, Research Centre, Discussion Paper Series 1: Economic Studies: 2010,11

Abstract:
This paper presents a new approach for analysing the recent development of EMU sovereign bond spreads. Based on a GARCH-in-mean model originally used in the exchange rate target zone literature, spreads are decomposed into a risk premium, an expected loss component and a liquidity premium. Time-varying default probabilities are derived. The results suggest that the rise in sovereign spreads during the recent financial crisis mainly reflects an increased expected loss component. In addition, the rescue of Bear Stearns in March 2008 seems to mark a change in market perceptions of sovereign bond risk. The government bonds of some countries lost their former role as a safe haven. While price competitiveness always helps to explain sovereign spreads, it increasingly moved into investors' focus as financial sector soundness weakened.
0 Replies
 
 

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