19
   

NO FLY ZONE . . . IN ENGLAND ! ! !

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 05:24 pm
It's great TV. Headless chickens are always funny.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 07:58 pm
My wife and I just cancelled a long anticipated holiday trip to Berlin and Prague we were to have begun tomorrow. I suspect that when they get back to full service on most routes, probably in a day or two, it will still take a few days to clear out the backlog of stranded travellers. Without a sense of the vidsibility at altitude and the concentration of the ash cloud, its hard to tell if the authorities are being too cautious. A difficult situation involving tough decisions.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 08:25 pm
@roger,
Quote:
Maybe just costs,
I was concerned about the cost of not flying..they have to pay hotel accomodation whilst not recieving income.
Quote:
Every ship has its best altitude, and a commercial airliner below 10,000 feet might have to kick out passengers to make room for the extra fuel.
No, it might be bumpy but there is no reason an engine cant be trimmed for below 10,000, it is just not the most economical but they could pass the cost on to the passengers like they always do.
Quote:
They probably couldn't maintain some required separation of flights at that altitude
Separation could be aided by going only one way between cities, making circular routes. Say Berlin to Rome, Rome to Paris, Paris to Berlin. The military do it all the time...you make an aerial highway.

They can not keep planes grounded for months.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 08:28 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
My concern is that jets will be exposed to low concentrations of this "cloud" and not show any immediate damage, however, these planes may be impaired slightly and take time for engine problems to develop. We might eventually see a spate of engine failures months or years from now.
Engines have special servicings for conditions such as these. If they chose to fly they would have to do these extra servicings.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:06 pm
this is yet another broadside to the modern corporate practices of just in time inventory management and also allowing extremely long supply chains in the pursuit of cheap labor and ineffective government control. When I lived in Europe the furthest away the produce came from was Israel, now a huge chunk of it is grown in Africa. No air service completely destroys the industry now.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:07 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

My wife and I just cancelled a long anticipated holiday trip to Berlin and Prague we were to have begun tomorrow. I suspect that when they get back to full service on most routes, probably in a day or two, it will still take a few days to clear out the backlog of stranded travellers. Without a sense of the vidsibility at altitude and the concentration of the ash cloud, its hard to tell if the authorities are being too cautious. A difficult situation involving tough decisions.


Oh what a pity, George. I hope you'll get a chance to go a bit later. Such great
cities - I love Prague!
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
Fruits and sea foods are flown fresh around the world. Internet businesses rely on air freight; tourism, business meetings, closing deals, the list is very long of things affected directly and all of us will be affected indirectly. What if it goes puff again just before the Olympics ?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:32 pm
Quote:
Other analysts pointed to a general European obsession with safety, which is called “the precautionary principle.” Essentially, European governments and their constituents believe that if the safety of something is not proven, it should not be allowed.

“Europe is the victim of the precautionary principle,” Mr. Pothier said, of “an uncoordinated overreaction to possible risk.” That led to a huge oversupply in swine flu vaccine, for instance, and, as Mr. Quatremer noted, the European aversion to genetically modified grain.

“It’s the same principle for the ash cloud,” he said. “We fear everything and want maximum safety for our citizens,” just like the way in the United States, he said, the society will go to extremes to protect citizens from terrorism. “No one can argue with security,” he said
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/world/europe/20ash.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Where oh where have I heard before this concept of aversion to risk, over reaction to risk, destroying civilization?? Oh YA, I said it, many times, over a period of years.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
It is very easy to second guess decisions such as this. Much harder to make them in unprecedented and difficult situations, surrounded by conflicting priorities and interests and continuing responsibilities for public safety.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:43 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:

It is very easy to second guess decisions such as this. Much harder to make them in unprecedented and difficult situations, surrounded by conflicting priorities and interests and continuing responsibilities for public safety.

Bullshit, this is part of a long string of EU Failures to perform. The Broad withering criticism of the EU this week is completely justified. Apologists for incompetence such as yourself are doing them no favors, they need to face the music, and get better.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:59 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It is very easy to second guess decisions such as this. Much harder to make them in unprecedented and difficult situations, surrounded by conflicting priorities and interests and continuing responsibilities for public safety.
I disagree. As soon as this happened I set to thinking of a work around. The problem is the people in charge dont want to suggest alternatives but would rather wait for a volcano to stop....how long will that take is the first question they should have asked and the answer would have been no-one knows. Next step, how do we work around it ....
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:06 pm
@Ionus,
OK. What is your solution?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:07 pm
@Ionus,
how bout we stick to the obvious problems...It took five days to have a leadership conversation of any kind about the problem, and the ban was instituted with zero scientific or historical evidence that it was the right move??!!
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:19 pm
Not only is it easy to second guess, it is a fool's position to do so. Politicians do not obtain and retain their positions by taking risks. The armchair leaders here who criticize will never be obliged to face the public for having made what appears in hindsight to be a foolish decision.

British Airways Flight 9 is the historical basis for these decisions. In the absence of any other evidence, that incident provides the governing example.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:22 pm
@Setanta,
they put the entire economy of the EU at risk, fool. The perception of the incompetence of EU leadership does even deeper damage.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:31 pm
By the way, the earlier comment about how close to the erupting volcano an aircraft passes is meaningless. BA Flight 9 was 150 km downwind of Mount Galunggung when it entered the ash cloud. An aircraft could fly to within a few hundred meters of an erupting volcano in perfect safety as long as it were upwind. But the same aircraft would encounter the problems which Flight 9 suffered if it were downwind by even as much as one hundred miles--about the distance from the volcano at which the flight path of BA Flight 9 crossed the ash plume.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
So far, Jackass, you're the only clown i see perceiving the "EU leadership" as incompetent. There is no singular, comprehensive "EU leadership" in the first place, so that won't wash, although it serves your melodramatic intentions. In the second place, had the incident been ignored, and even a single airliner had been seriously endangered, never mind crash landed in the sea as a result, the "political leadership of the EU" would have been in the toilet.

I'd be interested to know, Fool, just whom you consider to constitute "the EU leadership."
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:35 pm
@CalamityJane,
**** - he's married?? There go all my daydreams.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:37 pm
@Setanta,
Is "Fool" the new word for "Clown"? Just askin' Smile
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:44 pm
@georgeob1,
I described it previously. Fly only during the day. Fly below 10,000 ft. Fly one way paths between cities in Europe. Initiate dusty environment maintenance and inspections for aircraft. International flights can stop for maintenance at Canary Is, East Africa/Arabia/India for refuel and maintenance checks before continuing. Pass the costs on to the passengers. They can accept or cancel.
0 Replies
 
 

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