17
   

ADOPTED RUSSIAN BOY REJECTED, IN SELF DEFENSE

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:04 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree with what this mom did but I do have some sympathy for her.
she did not get this kid in front of a shrink even once, she did not use any of the social services at her disposal, she did not so far as I can see contact the adoption agency and alert them to the situation........so after doing not much of anything to correct the situation she decides that the child is defective and sends him back, alone, you still have sympathy for her? Amazing
OK, Hawkeye, let 's suppose that he is 100% PERFECT in his mind.
According to u, that makes it OK to leave him around
where he can CONTINUE his fires ?

In other words, according to Hawkeye,
its OK for him to burn down her house with her in it,
if he is of sound mind, therefore, it is imperative to get a diagnosis.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:05 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

It is an effort of precision of focus.
Are u against precision of focus ?

David


No. But I think it to be not only unfair but nearly criminal to chance someone's words when doing so.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:06 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Hmm.. being forced to leave his home isn't an attack on him?
Yes, its not. Breaking his jaw woud be an attack.



parados wrote:
Are you now arguing that where a person lives can't be defended by gun if someone wants them to leave?
That depends on who OWNS the place.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
But I think it to be not only unfair but nearly criminal to chance someone's words when doing so.


But I'm sure, your misquoting doesn't fulfil all the elements of a criminal provision Wink
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:11 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
I've already said she should have utilized social services.

I don't know why she never took the child to a psychiatrist. I'm sure there are many child therapist who speak Russian in her area. I'm sure her insurance would happily pay for the bank - busting services these kids need.

Truthfully, I don't know what she did or didn't try to do to resolve the situation.

I'm sure she must have felt very helpless and hopeless to do something so drastic and stupid and for that I do have sympathy.
Speed is of the essence. He was capable of burning her out,
after a very nice session with the psychologist.
I suspect that she did not want to give him the chance; too risky.

The time to defend her house is while it is still intact.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:18 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:

It is an effort of precision of focus.
Are u against precision of focus ?

David


No. But I think it to be not only unfair but nearly criminal to chance someone's words when doing so.
Because u have shown that this means a lot to u,
I will desist from bolding your words, if I remember.

U r the only member of A2K to complain of this.





David
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:26 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

So we take the word of two crazy women who had place a child on a plane as the first solution to their problems?


Why do you persist in calling these women 'crazy'? Where is your proof? You challenge David on his wording, but you should get your facts right. Your 'opinion' doesn't count - we need facts or evidence. Nowhere have I read that they were 'crazy'. Quit using that word and find an appropriate one.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 03:38 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

David wrote:
Granted that he DID have feelings,
but thay were of very hostile aggression driven by malice.
He was indeed mentally defective.
From these circumstances, it was necessary to defend herself,
not to just take chances. That 's what she did. KUDOS to her!
Ionus wrote:
You know better than that Dave. Why have you assumed her story is accurate?
I accept the facts as presented, not make up new ones, as I dream them up.



Ionus wrote:
How about she was cruel to the child and he was going to the Police?
How about u get some evidence of that ?


David, we don't know that her take of the situation is true or an inappropriate state of fear about normal childhood interest in fire. (See earlier comments by Walter Hinteler). We certainly do not know that the child is a crazed maniacal incendiary. You arguments on some issues tend to a bias towards fear and heightened defense.

She had reasonable options past putting a small child on a plane across the world by himself.





David



[img][/img]
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 03:43 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
BillRM wrote:
So we take the word of two crazy women who had place a child on a plane as the first solution to their problems?


Why do you persist in calling these women 'crazy'?
Where is your proof? You challenge David on his wording, but you should get your facts right.
Your 'opinion' doesn't count - we need facts or evidence. Nowhere have I read that they were 'crazy'.
Quit using that word and find an appropriate one.
Let the record indicate that I have him on Ignore
and therefore took no cognizance of whatever he said.





David
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 03:47 pm
@ossobuco,
Sorry, I mangled the quoting process..
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 03:55 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
Sorry, I mangled the quoting process..
That 's OK. I 'll get back to u in a few minutes.





David
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 05:05 pm
@Mame,
Quote:
Why do you persist in calling these women 'crazy'? Where is your proof?


Crazy and or immoral by their own actions of not seeking any treatment of any kind for a 7 year old they took responsibility for but instead just driving him to the airport and sending him half way around the world.

What more proof do you need but for their own actions in this matter?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 05:10 pm
@ossobuco,
David wrote:
Granted that he DID have feelings,
but thay were of very hostile aggression driven by malice.
He was indeed mentally defective.
From these circumstances, it was necessary to defend herself,
not to just take chances. That 's what she did. KUDOS to her!
Ionus wrote:
You know better than that Dave. Why have you assumed her story is accurate?
David wrote:
I accept the facts as presented, not make up new ones, as I dream them up.



Ionus wrote:
How about she was cruel to the child and he was going to the Police?
David wrote:
How about u get some evidence of that ?


ossobuco wrote:
David, we don't know that her take of the situation is true or an inappropriate state of fear about normal childhood interest in fire. (See earlier comments by Walter Hinteler). We certainly do not know that the child is a crazed maniacal incendiary. You arguments on some issues tend to a bias towards fear and heightened defense.

She had reasonable options past putting a small child on a plane across the world by himself.
Osso, it is true that we don 't KNOW the facts.
We can only read the representations of people who describe them.
I only accepted Torrey 's description of the facts, at face value.
There was no dispute, except from the Russians who were not
present to deny that he repeatedly threatened arson, and then
started some fires.

Let us take comfort in the fact that our opinions, however imperfect thay may be,
will have no effect upon the parties to this misadventure.
It is not as if we were a jury in a court of law. We can relax. Right ?





David


ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 05:30 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Sure.

And I'll admit I am emotional in my response to what I take as unwise (and a bunch of other words) trauma to the boy.

I in no way just agree the boy is driven by malice or a medical defective.

He may be a brutalized boy with pyromaniacal tendencies - I'm no expert on the ages that can show up. He also may be normal, best he can, reacting to rather wild circumstances.

In any case, rushing him off to a transworld airplane alone is/seems very cold, brutal.

At the least, I'd think of more consideration on who adopts. I imagine there is a lot of skittering there. I also worry, re the kids who are the most a mess, that even well meaning folk cannot handle the trauma already in place. I also think money has a lot to do with what could be called child traffic. Don't get me wrong, I am generally strongly for adoption. I do think there can be trouble obscured on both sides.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 05:37 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
She had reasonable options past putting a small child on a plane across the world by himself.


I think that is the essence of most people's objections to what this woman did.

This 33 year old single woman went out of her way to adopt an older child from a foreign country, apparently without sufficient knowledge of the types of problems and challenges these children present. She should have expected this child to have behavioral and emotional problems, and possibly developmental delays as well. She also should have expected that the child would have considerable difficulty adjusting to his new environment in her home. And she should have sought out appropriate resources, in advance, to help her, and the child, cope with these predictable issues.

This woman may have failed to do the necessary homework, prior to the adoption, and consequently she found herself overwhelmed by the child's problems when they became manifest. She then failed to get any professional help for the child, and may well have responded to his difficulties in ways that made the problems escalate. When the situation became intolerable for her, she did not seek reasonable options in terms of having the child placed in foster care or in a residential treatment facility. Instead, she sought to simply rid herself of the child, and she took the course of action that was the most detrimental and damaging to him--she put him on a plane and sent him back to Russia.

This woman, who had not adequately prepared herself for this adoption beforehand, and who had not sought professional help or intervention when predictable problems surfaced, then blamed the child and the Russian agency for the failure of the adoption. But she was the one who assumed the responsibility of parenting this child, and she was the one who failed to behave as a responsible parent. Her final act of "mothering" this child--putting him on that plane by himself--shows just how irresponsible she was in terms of considering his welfare. There is no reason to believe that any of her prior behaviors toward this child were any more responsible than her final action.

Nothing this child might have done in her home warranted that final treatment the child got from this woman. His biological mother had failed him profoundly, and now an adoptive mother failed him profoundly. To blame the child for any of this, or, even worse, to label him an incorrigible sociopath, is absurd. It is the adults in his life who have acted without conscience, not this child. It is the adults in his life who have acted in truly destructive ways, not this child.

This little boy came to his adoptive mother with an identity, an identity that included the memories of his past life experiences as well as his name.. The adoptive mother seems to have ignored this past identity to the point of trying to erase or obliterate it. She was not prepared to deal with, or even recognize, the problems he had as a result of a rather hellish past, and, in a significant act of denial on her part, she changed his name, as though that would cleanse him of his past. This child already had enough chaos and confusion to deal with regarding his adjustment to the adoption--a new language, a new living situation, new authority figures, new routines, the loss of everything familiar to him--and this woman takes away the one constant he has always had, a central part of his sense of identity, his name. This wasn't an infant, where a change of name doesn't affect the child. This was a 7 year old, who knew himself by that name. And the name change didn't occur after a long period of living together and bonding, it happened very soon after the adoption. And, she didn't just change his last name, which might have been reasonable, she changed his first name, the name by which he had always been called, and the name he used to refer to himself. Do you think she was even aware of what she was doing to him by taking away his name? Do you think she was aware that, by depriving him of his name, she was stripping him of the last vestige of certainty he had to hold onto?

At least when she put him on that plane, she gave him back his name...







ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 05:52 pm
@firefly,
Well, you and I agree on this.

Except maybe that I'll put more blame on the agencies, sloppy for money, using both the children and the adoptees. It's just more business, and lucrative at that.

I don't mean international adoption won't work. I just think it's a thicket with a lot of lacks.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 05:55 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
We can only read the representations of people who describe them.
Who represents the boy ? Where is his description ? Any judge would not jump to conclusions. You are not representing the mother and should show less bias.

There can be no doubt the woman has broken several laws and has a prima facie case to answer. As the boy is a minor, he has not broken criminal law, at least not in my country.

I was disappointed that you did not give an opinion on the law but came out fighting for child trafficking, reckless abandonement and what may turn out to be conspiracy to kidnap.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 06:06 pm
@firefly,
Could not agree with you more and this woman is a nurse of all things with the medical training to be aware of the possible problems of such an adoption.

To not even seek treatment for him is an outraged of the first order when some of those problems did appear.

Not one bit of good faith effort to deal with the child problems and seemingly not a bit of concern for the child welfare instead of her own comforter.

For an adoption to fail after a determent good faith effort is sad for all concerns but for it to fail in this manner is a crime.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 08:05 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I only accepted Torrey 's description of the facts, at face value.
There was no dispute, except from the Russians who were not
present to deny that he repeatedly threatened arson, and then
started some fires


According to the adoptive grandmother, the child drew a picture of a house burning and then told people he wanted to burn the house down. There are many reasons a child might draw such pictures, or make such statements. His situation in that home might have been intolerable for him, he might have felt angry and mistreated, he might have wanted to escape from there. This does not mean that he had any actual intention of trying to burn the house down or of seriously trying to deliberately hurt anyone.

The house this child was living in was a hotbed of emotions--it was burning up with emotions--because the mother wanted the child out of there. Perhaps that was what his burning house picture represented and reflected. He knew that the adoptive mother was unhappy with him, and he probably sensed that she wanted to get rid of him. She may even have expressed rage toward him, since she was overwhelmed and angry about the situation. His statements about wanting to burn the house down may have been his expressions of self defense against what he perceived to be a hostile environment with uncaring people. This may have been his cry for help.

He had not started any fires. The grandmother said they found him burning some pieces of paper in his room. Really? They were so anxious about his starting a fire that they left matches or a lighter available in the home so he was able to burn some paper? Does that make any sense? Does it even ring true? Even if true, burning some paper does not make him an arsonist, particularly if he was burning small scraps of paper in a wastebasket, and it doesn't mean he was about to burn the house down. Children do such things for all sorts of reasons. That's why responsible parents make sure children don't have matches to play with.

I can believe that the child might have drawn a picture of a house burning. I can believe he might have made some comments about wanting to burn the house down. I somehow doubt the burning paper incident, but that, even if true, wouldn't mean he was actually planning wide scale harm to anyone. These things were all very good reasons to get the child immediate psychiatric evaluation and treatment, or even have him placed in a psychiatric hospital for evaluation, to find out just what was going on with this child and to address it. They were not reasons to put him on a plane and ship him back to Russia. The foster mother and grandmother were not acting in "self-defense"--they wanted to be rid of this child. And not just rid of him, they wanted to even deprive him of the chance to grow up in the U.S., in another home, or another setting. They wanted him back in Russia, where his life would be as bleak as it was before. Who showed real malice in this situation, the child or the adoptive family?

I think it is important to remember that the statements the adoptive grandmother made, about the picture of the burning house, his remarks about wanting to burn the house down, and even the alleged burning paper incident, were all made after the public furor erupted over the boy's return to Russia. The grandmother was trying to defend herself and her daughter from public outrage, and was rationalizing their behavior by trying to present the child as dangerous. So, she has motive to exaggerate, knowingly or unknowingly, the child's actions and statements. Given the magnitude of the public's negative reaction to these people, it wouldn't surprise me if they next said the child chased them around the house with an ax--just to try to engender some public sympathy for themselves.



OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 10:27 pm
@firefly,
David wrote:
I only accepted Torrey 's description of the facts, at face value.
There was no dispute, except from the Russians who were not
present to deny that he repeatedly threatened arson, and then
started some fires
firefly wrote:
According to the adoptive grandmother, the child drew a picture of a house burning and then told people he wanted to burn the house down. There are many reasons a child might draw such pictures, or make such statements. His situation in that home might have been intolerable for him, he might have felt angry and mistreated, he might have wanted to escape from there. This does not mean that he had any actual intention of trying to burn the house down or of seriously trying to deliberately hurt anyone.
Woud it have been responsible to have just taken their chances and to have assumed the best ??





firefly wrote:
The house this child was living in was a hotbed of emotions--it was burning up with emotions--because the mother wanted the child out of there. Perhaps that was what his burning house picture represented and reflected. He knew that the adoptive mother was unhappy with him, and he probably sensed that she wanted to get rid of him. She may even have expressed rage toward him, since she was overwhelmed and angry about the situation.
Which came first: the chicken or the egg ?




firefly wrote:
His statements about wanting to burn the house down may have been his expressions of self defense against what he perceived to be a hostile environment with uncaring people. This may have been his cry for help.
This is another possible interpretation.
Its fine to speculate, now that he is distant and their house is safe again.


firefly wrote:
He had not started any fires.
How do u know this ?


firefly wrote:
The grandmother said they found him burning some pieces of paper in his room.
Were there other fires ?



firefly wrote:
Really? They were so anxious about his starting a fire that they left matches or a lighter available in the home
so he was able to burn some paper? Does that make any sense?
Woud thay even have considered hiding them,
before the first threat, or before the first fire ?


firefly wrote:
Does it even ring true?
Yes; matches are freely available thru out the world, without a license or registration.
For all we know, he might have ignited his fuel with other means, e.g. a magnifying glass.




firefly wrote:
Even if true, burning some paper does not make him an arsonist, particularly if he was burning small scraps of paper in a wastebasket, and it doesn't mean he was about to burn the house down.
Its too dangerous to take the chance.
It was imperative to separate the house from the arsonist as soon as possible.



firefly wrote:
Children do such things for all sorts of reasons.
Protecting the house was more important than the arsonist's motivation.


firefly wrote:
That's why responsible parents make sure children don't have matches to play with.
That 's IMPOSSIBLE. He can stash matches anywhere (need not be in the house)
or he can just get new matches (the same as guns); its not hard.



firefly wrote:
I can believe that the child might have drawn a picture of a house burning. I can believe he might have made some comments about wanting to burn the house down. I somehow doubt the burning paper incident, but that, even if true, wouldn't mean he was actually planning wide scale harm to anyone.
Maybe, but it 'd be irresponsible to risk the house on idle speculation that his threats were insincere.




firefly wrote:
These things were all very good reasons to get the child immediate psychiatric evaluation and treatment, or even have him placed in a psychiatric hospital for evaluation, to find out just what was going on with this child and to address it. They were not reasons to put him on a plane and ship him back to Russia. The foster mother and grandmother were not acting in "self-defense"--they wanted to be rid of this child.
Which came first: the chicken or the egg ?





firefly wrote:
And not just rid of him, they wanted to even deprive him of the chance to grow up in the U.S., in another home, or another setting. They wanted him back in Russia, where his life would be as bleak as it was before.
That was IMPORTANT, because as he grew older, into adolescence and adulthood,
there was an unacceptable level of danger that this psychopath woud avenge himself
upon the Hansen girls, taking them unaware, years in the future,
maybe a bom or a Molotoff Cocktail while thay slept; too risky
to keep him too close. Russia is safer for the Hansen girls.




firefly wrote:
Who showed real malice in this situation, the child or the adoptive family?
The child did.


firefly wrote:
I think it is important to remember that the statements the adoptive grandmother made, about the picture of the burning house, his remarks about wanting to burn the house down, and even the alleged burning paper incident, were all made after the public furor erupted over the boy's return to Russia. The grandmother was trying to defend herself and her daughter from public outrage, and was rationalizing their behavior by trying to present the child as dangerous. So, she has motive to exaggerate, knowingly or unknowingly, the child's actions and statements.
Anything is possible, but it looks like he scared them at SOME time.





firefly wrote:
Given the magnitude of the public's negative reaction to these people, it wouldn't surprise me if they next said the child chased them around the house with an ax--just to try to engender some public sympathy for themselves.
There was too much danger that after he grew older
he 'd actually DO something like that. He was mad at them.





David
 

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