15
   

Oral histories: What was it like during the war, mum?

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 01:15 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
But there's another side to this that the Brits and Aussies didn't understand. The kids who fought that war had just come out of a decade and more of some grim poverty. Now their nation was at war, and their government spared no expense or effort to give them the best of everything. In that sense, it was Fiddler's Green for them, too.


Yes, I can appreciate that, Setanta.

But there were mixed feelings in the Oz community to the presence of so many US troops on r n r , too. They were obviously a big hit with many women (hence so many war brides heading off to the US after the war). But there was also considerable bad feeling from other quarters: a feeling that "our women" were being disloyal to their Australian husbands/boyfriends (off at war) by fraternizing (too "loosely"! ) with these well off "outsiders".

A theme in a number books & art of the time. Melbourne artist, Albert Tucker (from the "angry penguins" group) was particularly incensed by the "loose morals" of the Americans & their Australian girlfriends. (Pretty moralistic for a contemporary artist, hey?)

Quote:
In 1942, Tucker was discharged from the war and returned to a Melbourne he did not like. He was particularly disgusted, but inspired by scenes of Melbourne’s nightlife, of a city he felt demonstrated a collapse of simple morality. He was shocked and outraged by images of schoolgirls trotting home to reappear wearing skimpy miniskirts made from Union Jacks and American flags, ready for a wild night in St. Kilda with the drunken American and Australian soldiers. In response he painted Victory Girls, an impression of American soldiers


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Tucker_%28artist%29

Famous Albert Tucker painting from that time: Victory Girls:

http://www.nga.gov.au/federation/Medium/82187.jpg
http://www.nga.gov.au/federation/Detail.cfm?WorkID=82187
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 01:23 am
@saab,
Quote:
My grandparents moved from Denmark to Sweden and the whole family became Swedish citizens. At that time my father was 12.
By the time he was 18 he got a letter from Denmark saying they did not want him as a soldier as he might be spying for the Swedes and on the same time a letter from the Swedes saying they did not want him as a soldier as he might be spying for the Danes.
A few months later my grandfather got a letter from Denmark saying they were looking for my father as a deseter. And a letter from Sweden saying the same.
Now my father wrote to both countries and got the same answer from both - choose whatever country you want to be a soldier in.
He choose Sweden at that time and later during WWII was a soldier in Sweden.


Wow, what a pickle to be in, saab!

I assume he was required to do military service with at least one of those countries? (Which ever one claimed his as their citizen, I'd presume?)
saab
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:04 am
@msolga,
A friend of the family - - a rather elderly and fragile lady -in Denmark was distributin illigal papers during the occupation. She hid them under her bed in case Germans would be searching her home.
Another person from the resistance asked her where she hid the papers and she said "Under my bed". He got all upset and told her that would be the first place the Germans would look.
"No matter what I think about the Germans, but I cannot imagen they fall that low they look under the bed of a lady"
She was never caught distributing illigal papers for the resistance.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:10 am
One of the most excruciatingly painful personal accounts of the effects of war on on young people that I've come across is Vera Brittain's Testament of Youth. Written from the perspective of the sheltered young middle class woman she was at the time, it recounts her personal experiences during WW1. And it was one tragic loss ofter another ..... a brother, friends, friends of her brother, the wounded & maimed young men she worked during her time as a nurse. As I say, it was an excruciating account of a huge tragedy. What a hideous waste: the loss of so many young lives! And what for, exactly?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/5/15/1242400726054/Vera-Brittain-002.jpg
Blazingly honest' ... Vera Brittain in VAD uniform during the first world war. Photograph: Hulton Archive/Getty Images

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/covers/2009/5/15/1242397542036/Testament-of-Youth-by-Ver-001.jpg

Quote:
She had lost her brother and his three best friends, one of whom she was in love with, had served with devotion in the VAD (Voluntary Aid Detachment - women who volunteered to nurse the war-wounded under the aegis of the Red Cross), and, at the war's end, was near a nervous breakdown from grief and overwork. .........


... she withdrew from Somerville and began nursing the wounded, and the grimmer her work, the more dedicated to it this hitherto sheltered young woman, who had never put her hand to any physically disagreeable task, became. One can only feel awestruck at the courage and endurance that she and her fellow VADs discovered in themselves.

Then came the deaths: Leighton's, her brother's and those of their two closest friends. They turned Brittain into a committed pacifist. There had always been sane instincts in her even when she was at her most romantic: she had never, for example, demonised German soldiers whose deaths she knew were as pitiful as those of Englishmen, and her objection to society's attitude to women was always steady and sensible. Now her future path was determined, although it was some time before she could see it.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/16/vera-brittain-testament-youth-reviewth
saab
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:15 am
@msolga,
I have not read this book, but others and I am always impressed by the people of both WWI and WWII and what they did for their country and for helping Europe and the world.
I often send these people dead or alive thoughts of thankfullnes for what they did. My life would not have been what it is today without all these brave men and women who fought, servived or died for not only their generation but also for the rest of us.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:25 am
@saab,
Yes, I can appreciate what you're saying, saab.

But for me, anyway, WW1 especially, remains rather incomprehensible regarding the whys & wherefores ... I can fully understand why so many (of the remaining) young people (like Vera Brittain) chose to become pacifists (say nothing of quite cynical about their leaders) as a result of that horrendous experience.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:26 am
I've got about 1,00 letters, postcards and other writings which my father send to his fiancée and later wife from 1940 onwards until 1948 - that's from Germany, France, Russia, and from the various POW camps in France.

My father didn't tell a lot, but those letters are really a great source.


In our house, there was a bomb shelter for all the neighbourhood - I've heard various stories, from my parents (my father never went there, he'd - according to others - always said that it was dangerous being in an ambulance tank in Russia than staying upstairs during a bomb attack).

My parents got married just two days before the first American troops arrived in my native town("Ruhr Pocket") (while the lead troops of the two Allied pincers met the other day, on April 1, 1945, where I live now).
My father wanted - as highest ranked officer (rank similar to a 1st Sergeant) - to hand over the town without any shootings, but he was only person who was shot at three times (Geneva Convention wasn't a big deal, not only in Russia).

[I'm just working to get things together after the war, will have a look at some archives in France next month.]
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Last year, http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/film-reviews/unter-bauern-saviors-of-the-night-film-review-1004005034.story][b]a really interesting film[/b] came out.
The story happened around here where I live (and in my father's native town).

I've heard about the original story a lot earlier - my grandparents were somehow involved.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 05:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Very interesting that you have all the mail and good that you have saved it.
Some people don´t.
You get to know your parents so well by reading and sorting these letters and post cards.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 06:58 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Sorry, Walter, the link you supplied doesn't work.

Saviours of the Night (I think).

I'll see if I can find it.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 07:07 am
@msolga,
I think this must be the film you're referring to, Walter:

Quote:

Unter Bauern: Saviors of the Night -- Film Review
By Ray Bennett, August 20, 2009 01:51 ET
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/photos/stylus/102753-unter_bauern_341x182.jpg

Bottom Line: Remarkable real-life story of German farmers who helped hide Jewish friends from the Nazis.

German cinema's growing number of films willing to address topics relating to World War II has a fine addition in Ludi Boeken's "Under Bauern: Saviors of the Night", which tells of farmers -- unter bauern -- in Westphalia who sheltered Jewish friends from the Nazis.

The appearance at the end of the picture of characters whose real life stories are related to the subject adds depth to a production filled with emotional power and a constant sense of dread. The film will find an international welcome from audiences who wish to add to their knowledge of the time and appreciate a riveting human drama well told. ...<cont>


http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/film-reviews/unter-bauern-saviors-of-the-night-film-review-1004005034.story
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 07:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I'd love to hear more (if you want to), Walter.

Sounds like you have access to a lot of fascinating information!

Any old photographs from that time?
Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 07:32 am
My father spent the war working in the Experimental Division of Hamilton Standard Propeller, Windsor Locks, Connecticut. All the work was Top Secret and, because the War Department expected there might be spies or saboteurs about, the actual work was done in an out of the way nondescript warehouse known as the Skunkworks, in Hartford, Connecticut.
(Look up Hydromatic Propeller if you want to know what the heck they were doing.)

The nine guys (it was all men, though there were plenty of women on the regular production lines) in Experimental had to carpool with other workers to Windsor Locks very early in the morning, check in, and then travel down to Hartford, about 15 miles, before daybreak.
Gasoline was rationed, so the guys tried various ways to save on having to make the extra trips. Sometimes they all packed into one car, sometimes two. One morning, the only person who had enough extra gas was the guy who owned a big Harley-Davidson Motorcycle. It had a sidecar which he was already using to bring two other guys to work every morning.

All the guys said "What the hell? Drive slow." So, with three guys in the side car and three on the bike (one in front of the driver and one in back) and three guys with their feet on the running board of the sidecar (and hanging on for dear life) off they went in the pitchy black to Hartford.

Ah, youth.

All went well until they were just about to get to the Skunkworks, they heard a siren.

er.. Traffic cop. Amazed at the circus act he had just seen proceeding down the avenue.

Well, now there was a problem. They couldn't tell him where they were going or why, so there was a lot of stammering going on until one of the guys said "Let's fess up."
All the guys turned to him.
"Officer, all these guys and I were at this all-night party and the driver here is trying to sneak everybody home before their wives wake-up."

Luckily for them, the officer apparently had been to some of those parties because he let them go on their way.

They used the motorcycle again from time to time to transport a few of the guys but nine is still the record to beat if you have the mind to do it.

Joe(Pop stayed friends with those guys his whole life)Nation
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 07:44 am
@Joe Nation,
Terrific story, Joe. Just loved it! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 08:23 am
Were any of you the offspring of such war marriages? ... Involving war brides who migrated from their own country to marry the soldiers they fell in love with?
Heaps of Australian women did the migration/marrying thing (mostly to the US).
This video is about English war brides (45ooo of them!) in Canada after ww2, talking about how it all came to be. :


0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:27 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Sounds like you have access to a lot of fascinating information!

Any old photographs from that time?


Yes to both. Wink
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:13 am
@Joe Nation,
In 1942/43, my father was as a medical staff segeant and in Russia for the second. (He had been both in the suburbs of St. Petrsburg/Leningrad and Moscow.)

On the retreat, he often became the commanding officer of some towns/villages as well as the only "doctor" in a military hospital .... because no other officers were there.

He was a 'doctor' in a field hospita, which was situated in a very famous abbey/monastery [I can't remember that name now], head of the ward with the most heavily wounded (he was attached to a tank division).
His (military) sergeant noticed by pure chance that the Russian troops were already in most parts of the building.
So my father with the three soldiers left from his company and about a dozen wounded fled on/in his "armored medical evacuation vehicle" to the next main casualty location.
The were followed by Cossack on horses. His sergeant, a young Westphalian farmer, said his heart would bleed but since those boys were their job like they did theirs .... so he shot with his machine gun all what was left on ammunition ... on the horses.
When they arrived at main casualty location, that place was fleeing as well. The military police was trying to stop it (or whatever). And a police general wanted to arrest my father since he didn't have those 2,000 blankets but only wounded soldiers.
And then his sergeant came forward, in a torn uniform, covered with hoses' and humans' blood, pointed with his now unloaded machine gun towards this military police general and said: "What did you ask the doctor, general, exactly, sir?"

And then they moved on.

(My father never - as far as I've read - mentioned specific places/names in his letters. He didn't write about this either [but told me about it]. He mentioned in a letter to my mother, however, that he was safe but could get some difficulties with the military police [which never happened].)

Medical students in Germany of those days studied half a year at a university - the other time they served as soldiers.

My father was at first a wireless operator, stationed in France.
At that time, he twice "nearly crossed the English channel" - there has been one photo, where you could imagine that the wide spots were the White Cliffs of Dover. But though I re-found a couple of photos from France, two are missing ...


Studying was "an adventure", too. The last years, father studied in Münster again. Since that city was heavily bombed a couple of times, his faculty later was situated in a smaller rural spa town, with just some handful of students left.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:27 am
I could answer quite a lot to the original question ... "mum".

But since my mother is still alive, I just want to give some details.

Mother was studying sports (at the same university as my father - they've met there in the anatomy seminar Wink ).
It was quite difficult for her to do more than athletics and gymnastics.

But since she knew some officers from the Hussar's regiment in Paderborn ...
Those young officers obviously tried to impress her: she was frequently riding on their horses on their barrack's riding place, 'disguised' as a male hussar.
But this seems to have happened only around 1939/40 until 1941.



She was ... well, a somehow stupid girl.
After she married my father (at 6 am, since that was considered to be "safe time"), my father tried to find some military unit in the neighbourhood and both wanted to made a pilgrimage to a nearby sanctuary, because they got married in those hard days ..
They did this tour on bicycles. And were only a miles out of town on the Reichs Highway Nº 1 when my mother pointed to what she thought could have been one of the promised "new secret German weapons".
But it were the first black person she saw ... three US-soldiers in a Jeep.
So they only lit up some candles in the chapel and my father ... see above.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 12:53 pm
@Joe Nation,
And that reminds me of one. I heard this one from a now deceased friend who was in the navy in the second world war. He drove a landing craft in the South Pacific, by the way.

Anyway, gas rationing was in full effect, and the base was spotted with little signs asking "Is This Trip Really Necessary". So, shore patrol had to pick up a drunken sailor in town and transport him to the brig. Semiconscious, he lifted up his head, looked around and asked "Is this trip really necessary?".

True story? Maybe so.

0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:15 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
The Brits used to say that there were three problems with the Americans: they were overpaid, oversexed and over here.


So did the Australians! What a coincidence! There might well have been some truth to this theory! Wink

Checking out your link now, Setanta.


co-incidentally I took this photo yesterday 11/4/10 at Melbourne Town Hall

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/dadpad/055.jpg
 

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