Is Evolution a Dangerous Idea? If so, why?

@farmerman,

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Im not sure even what your question is??
Assume man is natural, hen things of man are natural NO? Whats the argument?? Are you trying to insert the SUPERNATURAL??
There I dont agree because I see no evidence regarding anything supernatural

Ok, no physical evidence that it is supernatural.

But, can we agree that the level of intelligence and the ability to alter matter and the systems that are operating in that matter. differ tremendously between humans and the next smartest animal. Mankind has the ability to consciously alter nature to the better or the worse while all other intelligence in nature appears to be part of the system and we have never observed any other species creating any complex improvements to their housing or any other management of their surroundings.

1. In other words men can reprogram nature and themselves while animals appear to be subprograms that cannot consciously reprogram the main programs in nature in any significant way?

2. Can you explain why that difference exists?

3. Can anyone?

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@Leadfoot,

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not sure y

"Being sure Y" would imply purpose for your existence and understanding that purpose. You can use your intelligence to alter nature to suit your personal interest. But, if you evolve and decide your purpose is to enslave or destroy the world that could be dangerous.

So, what if you evolved to become smarter than everyone else and in reality your enslaving the world kept the rest of mankind from destroying it?

Isn't that survival of the fittest?

What if you are wrong and everyone you enslaved was right?

Good thing man didn't have the ability to create the world, everything he manages he seems to nearly destroy eventually. Besides, the world wasn't made for humans to live on forever anyway.

Or was it?

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@brianjakub,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"not sure y"

brianjakub replied:

"Being sure Y" would imply purpose for your existence and understanding that purpose. You can use your intelligence to alter nature to suit your personal interest. But, if you evolve and decide your purpose is to enslave or destroy the world that could be dangerous.

Whoa, lot to unpack here.

It's not the purpose for existence that I'm unsure of, it was the question of why try to influence anyone's opinion on this subject. That's why I (and some others) are about as popular as a turd in a punch bowl here - we make the ridiculous claim to know such a thing. That is why there is danger surrounding the idea of Evolution.

The danger to the apparently delusional ones that believe they know the purpose of life is two-fold.
First, all of them become as popular as the aforementioned turd.
Second, Evolution can and has convinced many that they were/are delusional, even when they weren't. They often become the most ardent atheists.

The danger to the followers of Scientism is that they can't shake the need to keep revisiting the same ******* argument over and over. They may try to justify it as trying to protect those innocent little minds in public schools
from the evils of mysticism (and I have some sympathy there) but it's really the absurdity of their own religion that demands they come back to the 'danger'.

Quote:

So, what if you evolved to become smarter than everyone else and in reality your enslaving the world kept the rest of mankind from destroying it?

Isn't that survival of the fittest?

I see where you are going there and I (finally Smile

appreciate it. Let's spell it out:

Whether they realize it or not, all Christians are asking for a benevolent dictatorship. That bothered me until I realized the absolute truth of it being the best possible system. Choice of dictators is critical.

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What if you are wrong and everyone you enslaved was right?

OK, putting myself in the place of the dictator for a moment. You have a point here, if I'm wrong I have wasted their time by engaging with this useless drivel and caused them unnecessary mental turmoil. My bad.

But no, in your scenario the survival of the fittest would be me wiping out every one of you inferior humans and keeping the unspoiled earth for myself.

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Good thing man didn't have the ability to create the world, everything he manages he seems to nearly destroy eventually. Besides, the world wasn't made for humans to live on forever anyway.

Or was it?

IDK, they say the air in LA is way better today than it was 50 years ago.

But no, this earth was not meant to live on forever. Stars burn out and even protons decay eventually. I don't know how the JWs & Mormons handle that one, what about your gang?

If we are still in the realm of theology, the book seems to indicate the last act of the play on earth is a long one, but still only a thousand years.

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@Leadfoot,

I'm an atheist in a family of christians. I don't believe in any super being or after life. I do believe in evolution, the kind researched by Charles Darwin. Environment has to do with everything on this planet, and its living things. Adapt to the environment, or die.

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@cicerone imposter,

So climate change is the force behind all progress in your POV ?

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

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But no, this earth was not meant to live on forever. Stars burn out and even protons decay eventually.

First of all what happened before the initial inflation event of the Big Bang is hard for the scientific community to comment on. I believe all the matter in the universe existed perfectly and was much denser spatially before the Big Bang. (The Creation of matter, which was a "quantum nucleation event", happened before the Big Bang and is the first creation story in the bible.) There were no electron clouds before the transition event that started inflation which appeared:

first as inflation in matter as dark energy. This happened when matter was disconnected from the higgs field and electrons (which were part of the nucleus up till then)were now in a cloud interacting with the nucleus and the higgs field. This cloud introduced all the empty space into the atom we observe today and initiated the inflation event.

second in empty space (the higgs field) as dark matter (which is really just inflation of the higgs field and isn't really matter at all) and appears as a whirl pool in the Higgs Field thus the spiral shape of the galaxies.

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I don't know how the JWs & Mormons handle that one, what about your gang?

The flood is the introduction of inflation and is covered as the fall of man and the opening of the flood gates of Noah's Flood. The gates of the flood were closed by the death of Jesus on the cross. The dove bringing the olive branch to Noah is what happened on Pentecost Sunday when the Holy spirit was delivered to the apostles in the upper room (Acts 2:3) in tongues of fire. The dove is the Holy spirit and the Olive Branch is Israel and the rest of the world as Jesus (the Jewish Messiah) completed Israels purpose of reuniting mankind with God. Both the Big Bang and the Ressurection are universal events that could be viewed by everyone. That is why the sky went dark for hours in the middle of the day when Jesus died. All the processes of restoring the entire universe began on that day and are continuing today. That is the 1,000 year age written about in the bible. It is the church age and we are currently experiencing it. And that correction Jesus put into the universe (which caused the sky to darken for hours in the afternoon during his crucifixion) can be put into the universe of your body through the Eucharistic as long as you give God permission to do so by confessing your sins.

Any questions?

1 Reply

@brianjakub,

Yes, more than you probably have time for.

First, are we talking theology or cosmology? I should have phrased it as " this earth was not meant for us to live on forever."
I am not a dirt worshipper, the earth is not alive. The earth is a terrarium.
I asked about the JWs and Mormons because they believe earth (and this way of life) IS our home for eternity.

Are the answers you are giving your own or are they based on the beliefs of your particular religion? I greatly prefer your personal opinions and thoughts.

Are these beliefs based on revelation or interpretation of the Bible or some other text?

If the thousand years started at Jesus' death/resurection, isn't The End about 1000 years late?

I really hope the answer does not involve some nebulous inflationary theory of time. As the book says, 'Say it straight, let your conversation be yea or nay.'

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@Leadfoot,

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So climate change is the force behind all progress in your POV ?

It's been determined that human use of fossil fuel adds to our atmosphere. I agree with scientists that the burning of fossil fuels is bad for our planet. https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-energy/coal-and-other-fossil-fuels/hidden-cost-of-fossils

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@cicerone imposter,

The hidden costs of fossil fuels. Externalities are sometimes easy to see, such as pollution and land degradation, and sometimes less obvious, such as the costs of asthma and cancer, or the impacts of sea level rise. Many consequences are far removed from our daily lives and may only affect a minority or marginalized subset of the population.

Costs accrue at every point of the fossil fuel supply chain. Extraction processes can generate air and water pollution, and harm local communities. Transporting fuels from the mine or well can cause air pollution and lead to serious accidents and spills. When the fuels are burned, they emit toxins and global warming emissions. Even the waste products are hazardous to public health and the environment.

Understanding these impacts is critical for evaluating the true cost of fossil fuels—and for informing our choices around the future of energy production.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

The hidden costs of fossil fuels. Externalities are sometimes easy to see, such as pollution and land degradation, and sometimes less obvious, such as the costs of asthma and cancer, or the impacts of sea level rise. Many consequences are far removed from our daily lives and may only affect a minority or marginalized subset of the population.

Costs accrue at every point of the fossil fuel supply chain. Extraction processes can generate air and water pollution, and harm local communities. Transporting fuels from the mine or well can cause air pollution and lead to serious accidents and spills. When the fuels are burned, they emit toxins and global warming emissions. Even the waste products are hazardous to public health and the environment.

Understanding these impacts is critical for evaluating the true cost of fossil fuels—and for informing our choices around the future of energy production.

Co2 air scrubbers and sinks would change everything about the costs, maybe we should work on that rather than degrading civilization with the extreme energy diets that have been advocated, that the fanatics demand. The great thing about tech historically is that it has allowed us to have easier lives filled with more stuff to include food, but we dont believe in tech anymore, now we get told that we need to do without, because of the health of the planet, there are no other and better options.

This is stupid, this is a sure sign that we have made a mistake.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Before I answer this can I ask you to questions? First do you believe that the earth is 6000 years old as the Bible says? Second do you think every time 40 days Is written in the Bible that means exactly 40 days?

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@hawkeye10,

When it's about making money and creating jobs, the other consequences are often ignored. That's been the human condition since the industrial revolution.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

When it's about making money and creating jobs, the other consequences are often ignored. That's been the human condition since the industrial revolution.

When people are exploitable there can always be found people who are willing to exploit them for personal profit....that is the lesson I encourage you to pay attention to.

This does not mean however that we are helpless in trying to build ourselves a better situation...because we have the ability to make ourselves better....Sam Harris is not wrong on this point.

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@hawkeye10,

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When people are exploitable there can always be found people who are willing to exploit them for personal profit....that is the lesson I encourage you to pay attention to.

I don't need to pay attention to exploitation; I've been retired since 1998, live in one of the safest cities in the country, with some of the best climate this world has to offer. My wife and I are in our early 80's, and enjoy a relatively healthy lifestyle. Kaiser Hospital is one block from where we live. We have easy access to highways 280, 101, Central Expressway, and Lawrence Expressway, although our travel days by car are now somewhat limited. San Jose International Airport is 20 minutes from where we live, and San Francisco International is around 35 minutes. In September, we're flying down to San Diego to spend four nites there; we will visit Coronado Island. Balboa Park & zoo, Old town, USS Midway, hop-on hop-off bus, and possibly a cruise around the bay. We're taking the bus to Los Angeles to spend four nites to visit Hollywood's Grauman's Theater, (including the walk of fame), Universal and Warner Bros studios, and one of the last J-towns in the country in Los Angeles (including the Japanese American National Museum). We're taking the train from Los Angeles to San Jose. https://lajollamom.com/amtrak-pacific-surfliner-business-class-california-train/. It should be fun.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:
When people are exploitable there can always be found people who are willing to exploit them for personal profit....that is the lesson I encourage you to pay attention to.
I don't need to pay attention to exploitation; I've been retired since 1998, live in one of the safest cities in the country, with some of the best climate this world has to offer. My wife and I are in our early 80's, and enjoy a relatively healthy lifestyle. Kaiser Hospital is one block from where we live. We have easy access to highways 280, 101, Central Expressway, and Lawrence Expressway, although our travel days by car are now somewhat limited. San Jose International Airport is 20 minutes from where we live, and San Francisco International is around 35 minutes. In September, we're flying down to San Diego to spend four nites there; we will visit Coronado Island. Balboa Park & zoo, Old town, USS Midway, hop-on hop-off bus, and possibly a cruise around the bay. We're taking the bus to Los Angeles to spend four nites to visit Hollywood's Grauman's Theater, (including the walk of fame), Universal and Warner Bros studios, and one of the last J-towns in the country in Los Angeles (including the Japanese American National Museum). We're taking the train from Los Angeles to San Jose. https://lajollamom.com/amtrak-pacific-surfliner-business-class-california-train/. It should be fun.

Said no civilized educated person ever.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

If you want to talk environmental damage, do you realize that all that wonderful world travel (84 countries was it?) you enjoyed so much is the second largest contribution to the carbon footprint you leave?
You have no doubt enjoyed burning more carbon than 1000 average Indians do in their entire lifetimes. So your heartfelt belief in the need to sacrifice for the benefit of the planet's climate kind of falls flat on me.

Besides that, you avoided the question I actually asked.
What I asked was: Since you believe that climate change is responsible for our evolution from single cell to human being, why would climate change be a bad thing? The most cataclysmic rapid climate change in history wiped out the dynos and paved the way for you. Maybe you would be replaced by something better if it changes again.

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I think it was Jordan Peterson who I heard say that a dangerous idea is one that is true, or is more true than people want to believe.

Dangerous ideas cant be eradicated, but they need to be explored.

This deep in to this Dark Age we cant manage that.

SAD

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@hawkeye10,

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Said no civilized educated person ever.

I'm happy to be the first.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

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... do you realize that all that wonderful world travel (84 countries was it?) you enjoyed so much is the second largest contribution to the carbon footprint you leave?

Actually, it's been 132 countries. I'm not the only human being using airplane travel. Fact check on air travel: FAA Home ▸ Air Traffic ▸ Air Traffic By The Numbers
Air Traffic By The Numbers
Every day, the FAA's Air Traffic Organization (ATO) provides service to more than 44,000 flights and 2.7 million airline passengers across more than 29 million square miles of airspace. With an airspace system as vast and complex as ours, it is helpful to have an easy-to-reference source for relevant facts and information. View the infographic below for a glimpse into ATO, or for more information, see Air Traffic by the Numbers (PDF). Air travel is safe and convenient.

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Life itself is not without risk, and yet statistically, air travel is almost as close to risk-free as it gets, even as the number of those travelling continues to rise. Globally in 2017, 4.1 billion passengers travelled by air, with a total of just 50 fatalities from accidents involving scheduled commercial flights.Oct 29, 2018
How safe is air travel? - The National

I have traveled to all seven continents, including Iceland and Esperanza Base in Antarctica. I also visited South Georgia Island to visit Ernest Shackleton's grave site. Mr. Shackleton is my life's hero, because when his ship, Endurance, was crushed by the ice, he saved all his men by traveling across the ice to seek help. There's a good exhibit at the Maritime Museum in London with pictures on his exploration of the South Pole and the rescue. Cruised both oceans, and most of the major rivers of the world. I feel fortunate to have had the time and means to travel as much as I have. Making friends in Russia, Germany, France, England, Cuba, Mexico, Singapore, Bhutan, and all across the USA have been my reward. What more can any human on this planet ask for?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:
Said no civilized educated person ever.
I'm happy to be the first.

Happy because you got what you wanted....I know....you keep advertising.

It is such a shame that you did not aim higher.

1 Reply

Is Evolution a Dangerous Idea? If so, why?

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