35
   

Is Evolution a Dangerous Idea? If so, why?

 
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 09:35 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Youve forgotten that most of the world didnt even give a rats ass about Christianity. CHina India and The Arabian peninsula ere busy doing all the heavy scientific lifting while EUrope was wallowing in filth.
Would this be the same China that had Confucianism, the same India that had Zarathustrianism then Hindi, the same Arabian peninsula that gave us the early hebrews and later the Islamic faith ?

The worry for the separation of church and state that throws members of this forum into apolexy whilst running around screaming Creationist...he's a Creationist ! Burn him ! is not justified by any historical examples. Britain did quite well without separation of church and state. So did early Islam and China. If separation was paramount where is the evidence of failure where they are not separate ? Where is the evidence of success where they are separate ? It doesnt exist. This is a uniquely USA problem.
Jason Proudmoore
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 09:56 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

This is so true...I should use this as my new sig.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 10:06 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Would this be the same China that had Confucianism, the same India that had Zarathustrianism then Hindi, the same Arabian peninsula that gave us the early hebrews and later the Islamic faith ?
You can dance with the best of your bullshit sycophants. Your original statement and the one I hold you to was that the "Religionist state "of England was somehow beholden to the (implied but not written) CHRISTIANITY. Now ,you , being cornered, want to darw in the Islamic world. I have no arguments about Islamic Science preceeding anything that WEUrope had to offer since there was a distinct need for these arts.
1Surveying, math and geometry were needed to divide land according to the laws of Islamic inheritance

2 Astronomyy and geography were needed throughout the caliphates to determine the direction for prayer.
Most of the scientists were not even Arab or Muslim. They were hypeed by the Caliphs as "the latest flavors of gizmo purveyors" > WHILE IN EUROPE, at the very same time, science was equated with witchcarft and divination. Keeping em dumb and subjugated was a great way to maintain control (NOt miuch has changed in Evangelical Fundamenatlism). Now today, even the great Arab civiliozations have given up any leadership they once had in science and are a bunch of feudal nations.



HOWEVER, Thats really not what you were trying to spew. Youve been a religionist apologist throughout and have leaned on the spendi crap that scinec was dependent on Christianity in Europe and thats bullshit. Lests stick to the subjects at hand .
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 11:40 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
He feels that all science owes its beginnings to Christianity. Science really developed despite Christianity, not because of it.



That is incorrect. And I know it. It is only the western Faustian science of dynamic space that owes its existence to Christianity and the contemplation of the infinite God. I have offered you already the story of Bishop Cusa.

How many ******* times do you need to be ******* told fm!!!!! That's why we have machine power and electricity and no-one else ever did and they were all humans and just as clever as us. You silly moo. When are you going to knock off letting your emotional prejudices, probably deriving from sexual irregularities, scare you off reading Spengler. The only difference between us and all other human societies is Christianity. You need to be not only profoundly unscientific not to be able to see it but as blind as a ******* bat as well. You confine your reading to that bunch of third raters that you do and you'll stay as stupid and as bigoted as you are for ever and ******* ever and churning out self-comforting assertions like the above for just as long. You would be farming with hoes but for Christianity. Every other society did. And hunting with sharpened sticks.

Here fm--read this--read it with more care than you usually give--do yourself a favour. Assertions are useless around here.

In John Morley's essay on J.S. Mills writings about religion, which are a few cuts above the spin doctor's drivel wande finds on various blogs and other shite-ridden sources, he discusses the appearence in the world of great intellectual reformers such as Socrates, Descartes, Shakespeare and Voltaire. Were they artifically created? he asks. Or were they as spontaneous as new species in the animal kingdom?

And that the qualities they possessed were merely intensified enlargements of qualities other men possessed. Like Tiger Woods say.

Quote:
If it cannot be denied that no amount of taking thought, nor anything else short of natural intervention, will produce those variations in mental type that lead the race a distinct step forward, it still remains equally true that such variations would be thrown away and lost unless external circumstances were such as to allow of their preservation. In other words, the state of society into which these men of exceptional natural qualities are born, is as important an element in the ultimate result as the fact of such men having arisen.


It wouldn't matter how good Tiger Woods is if there is no such thing as golf.

Modern western science is the child of Christianity. As Darwin was. You fm are as Christian as the average Joe. Not knowing it hinders you doing anything about it.

As Spengler says in The Meaning of Numbers--

Quote:
Classical, Apollinian number we must regard as the creation of Pythagoras--who founded a religion. It was an instinct that guided Nicolaus Cusanus, the great Bishop of Brixen (about 1450) from the idea of the unendingness of God in nature to the elements of the Infinitessimal Calculus. Leibniz himself, who two centuries later definitely settled the methods and notation of the Calculus, was led by purely metaphysical speculations about the divine principle and its relation to infinite extent to conceive and develop the notion of analysis situs---probably the most inspired of all interpretations of pure and emancipated space---the possibilities of which were to be developed later by Grassmann in his Ausdehnungslebre and above all by Riemann, their real creator, in his symbolism of two-sided planes representitive of the nature of equations. And Kepler and Newton, strictly religious natures both, were and remained convinced, like Plato, that is was precisely through the medium of numbers that they had been able to apprehend intuitively the essence of the divine world-order.


None of that and no Beagle, no Darwin, no art. And, to be fair, no nukes, no biological wierdies and humans as no threat to life on earth. That's the point to attack Christianity on. But not from where you are sitting.

And it's an admittedly far fetched theory of mine that the Bishop of Brixen had something Jesus had said in his mind and reported in Luke and which the practical Romans did not understand but which was a capital crime in Greece.

The liberation from the bondage of the senses in divine contemplation. Not an American in sight. And the real source which provided the technologies, the finance and the straining into distance through which the American continent was conquered and its assets unlocked and one might easily say squandered in a vast splurge of self indulgence for which Paris Hilton stands as exemplar.

You are even in denial of your heritage and your mental DNA. Of intuition as well. Of psychosomatic effects. Evolution represents a mechanical and simple renaissance of the senses. Back to money as pieces of money rather than active points of dynamic force in space.

After that back to bartering.


DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 11:44 am
Science in England was hampered by the state religion. Biologists, for example, were afraid of categorizing too many species for fear of showing that Noah's Ark was incapable of carrying them all.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 11:48 am
@DrewDad,
Cripes!!
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:00 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
What fools like you fail to understand is that if I were to ignore opinion I would be a bigot
.
This sentence right here explains your inability to comprehend simple sentences: your lexicon contains the wrong definitions...for instance, your sentence here doesn't make any sense since a bigot is "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ." I can't see that you ignoring my opinion should be a sign of being a bigot.

Quote:
It seems I am forever defining words for you.

Of course you have.

I wrote:
Quote:
And what is your explanation?

Ionus responded:
Quote:
If you werent a bigot you would have read it by now

So, by me not understanding something you wrote or not reading it makes me a bigot, even if your rebuttal is so preposterous that it belongs in the Guinness World's Record of Creationist Straw-men Arguments ?


I wrote:
Quote:
I gave you the verses from the Bible that teach or promote that the Earth is flat...deal with it.

Ionus responded:
Quote:
No, you didnt.

Yes, I did...just in case you missed them, here they are again:
Isa 40:22
Dan 4:10-11
Job 38:13
Deu 28:49, Deu 28:64, Deu 33:17, 1 Sam 2:10, Job 1:7, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Psa 2:8, Psa 19:4, Psa 22:27, Psa 33:13, Psa 33:14, Psa 48:10, Psa 59:13, Psa 61:2, Psa 65:5, Psa 72:8
Dome : Gen 1:6-7, Gen 1:14-17...ignore them all your want...they won't disappear from the Bible.

Quote:
Pray no-one checks you up on that or you will look even more of a fool...assuming that is possible.

And how is this helping you with your argument?


Quote:
Do you see what happens when you try logic ? You fall flat....Eratosthene calculated the earth's radius

Eratosthenes of Cyrene (Greek Ἐρατοσθένης; c. 276 BC[1] " c. 195 BC[2]) was a Greek mathematician, elegiac poet, athlete, geographer, and astronomer. He was the first person to use the word "geography" and invented the discipline of geography as we understand it.[3] He made several discoveries and inventions including a system of latitude and longitude. HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO CALCULATE THE CIRCUMFERENCE of the earth by using a measuring system using stades, or the length of stadiums during that time period (with remarkable accuracy), and the tilt of the Earth's axis (also with remarkable accuracy); he may also have accurately calculated the distance from the earth to the sun and invented the leap day"
source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Quote:
- he didnt prove it was round.

What the hell is a circumference?



Quote:
Columbus didnt prove the earth was round - he calculated the circumference to be a third of what it really is

What? Columbus didn't prove the earth to be round? What the hell is a circumference then? Are you making things up as you go?
Quote:
. Early sailing peoples knew the earth was round - they didnt prove it.

If the "early sailing peoples" had the knowledge that the world was round, how come they thought that if they sailed to the end of the world, something like this might happened?
http://randazza.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/flat_earth1.jpg
Don't ignore the question...just explain it.

Quote:
The author's of the Bible knew the earth was round - thats why you cant produce evidence they thought it was flat.


But I already did...see above.

Quote:
Sphere - do you mean the hebrew word sphr meaning book or the greek word sphaira meaning globe or ball ?

We now agree that the ancients had a word for "sphere"...you are debunking your own nonsensical argument...only if you were smart enough to notice.

Quote:
Round - the origins are uncertain but do you mean fullness ?

"Fullness" of what? What in the name of Einstein are you talking about? A sphere is a three dimensional object...like a cube....or prism:
http://education.eastmanhouse.org/discover/kits/images/11/EDDK00010004.jpg...what does "fullness" has to do with it? Come on, Mi'te...focus!

Quote:
You prove again to be a wishful thinker when it comes your knowledge.

I will have to lend you my mirror, so you could be able to wipe your mouth from all the human excrement bursting out of your mouth every time you open it.
Quote:
The ancients knew the world was curved in all directions.

Wrong again...if they knew that the world was round or a spherical, the religious institution (especially the Catholic one) would not have rejected the idea....and why did the church reject the idea, Ionus?
Understand now ?
Yes...you are the most incoherent and ignorant person I ever met.
Quote:
And when you say natural you mean unnatural....

I mean the natural world that exists without a deity or god that is unnatural.

Quote:
But science was complete then..

You will have to explain yourself here...how was science complete back then when everything society believed was derived from myths? How do you account for the Dark Ages?

Quote:
it knew everything just like it knows everything today

This is why I think you either need to be in a mental institution or need to go back to 5th grade.

Quote:
it is not possible for knowledge to exist that you are not aware of

What? English!
Quote:
you are the Great Gayson Prodmemore

Great argument! Ten more points!
Quote:
Science is now complete.

Science is complete, indeed...you're the best example of a human crossed wit an ass.
Quote:
So how does a placebo work ? You are the dumbest....you were the runt of the litter, right ?

Ten more point for argumentative skills! WOW!
Quote:
If you had any scientific training you would know there is more to science than one opinion or fools like you would be out of control.

http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1900000/Animated-GIFS-the-joker-1971583-400-233.gif
Quote:
Again, it was beyond your comprehension and ability

let's give it a try...

Quote:
Pollution

Right now with have the technology to eliminate pollution, and because of political matters concerning money, and the Christian notion that Jesus will come and we need not to save the Earth because of it, the world is where it is now...do you want me to continue further? I think I will have to. Just let me know.
,
Quote:
over-population

We already covered this one...remember the church encouraging its followers to multiply and the rejection or nonbeliever in birth control?
Come on, you can do better than this.
,
Quote:
lots of gadgets that no-one needs but has to have

I don't see how relevant this is to the argument, but let me tell you that I don't need to argue with you, but you provide me with so much amusement.
,
Quote:
consumerism that is destroying our natural resource and heritage

Go back to the Christian belief that the world is coming to an end.
Quote:
creation of super-germs that could wipe us out

Who are creating these "super-germs", the Taliban or those Christians who think that Jesus is coming and the world is coming to an end, or people who are experimenting with viruses for the betterment of humanity?
Quote:
...the list is long and I tire of typing for a fool like you.

Are you "tire"? I haven't caught my second wind yet...come on, Bozo...don't give up.
Quote:
Look it up.

I did:
http://archive.perfectduluthday.com/bozo-the-clown.jpg
Quote:
The nuclear weapon stockpile was natures idea...sorry for you that would be unnatures idea....or a religious invention ?

Science doesn't kill anybody...just leave the nuclear technology to the religious nut and tell me what might happen....Ionus, you are so easy.

Quote:
So the non-religious nazis who used science were the good guys ?

This is another very old straw-man argument derived from creationists ignorance, that the Nazis were not religious but were atheists...this argument has been debunked so many times, my black and white friend....it's like you've never heard about this argument in your life...the video below is self explanatory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWvvSdxu9eo


Quote:
It was the evil christian countries that caused WWII....

Yes!
Quote:
your stupidity is setting a new standard for an IQ test...albeit the minimum.

Ignorance has never been a virtue, Ionus.

Quote:
For once, Gayson Prodmemore, you are making sense. You agree with me.

Are you sure you've read my post correctly? This is what I wrote:
Quote:
we must promote education and separation of church and state for the citizens of the world.

Is this a 180 degree turn from your part?

Quote:
It looks like a little man with a chip on his shoulder and narcistic homosexual tendencies with a degree of stupidity unequaled even on the internet[...] A fact from you...your big chance for a first and you blew it...dont tell your mum.

You are the best debater of all times ...ten more points!
"Real men of Geeeeniusss... ugh"...we salute you.

Quote:
Oh I am convinced you like it. Let me guess..you were trying to take a picture of your arse for Gayboy International (centrefold play bunny) when the camera slipped due to excessive use of KY.

Are you having another psychotic episode?
Quote:
You do realise I am australian ?

No worries, Mi'te?
Jason Proudmoore
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:01 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
It is a duty to educate..

Now we agree!
Jason Proudmoore
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 12:10 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Incorrect. I gave a definition of theory before. You were either too lazy or incompetent or bigotted to read it. Read the following :

Did you watch the video I posted...or it was too factual for you?

Quote:
I qouted : Theories are analytical tools for understanding, explaining, and making predictions about a given subject matter. Theory is constructed of a set of sentences which consist entirely of true statements about the subject matter under consideration. However, the truth of any one of these statements is always relative to the whole theory.

Isn't a true statement something that we all agree upon, which constitute as a fact? You seem to not understand logic very well or just the English language in particular. Theories are composed of facts...and you just admitted it.
Quote:
And some day they become a fcat in themselves. Some theories are more accurate then others, some have more facts in the, so to label a theory as fact because you worship science and blow scientists is stupid beyond belief.

Nonsense...
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 01:01 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
looks like spendi is all spittled up and is waiting to act like the indignant paerish priest whose been caught diddling the altarboys.
Quote:
You would be farming with hoes but for Christianity. Every other society did
Actually, it was the egyptians who invented the bottom plow and as far as I know, row cropping and irrigation. Even the AMerind Agriculture was more advanced than that of Europe.
You seem to want to sound educated but miss the several midlevel rungs.
I still love how you and ionus seem to try to dance around so you wont be pinned in a corner. Now science DOESNT owe anything to Christianity exceptnwhen it does. GOOD LOGIC.




Your continued silly attacks have no substance and are as meaningless as your references to Bishop Brixen (Weve missed him , youve not paraded him out for several months, He doing spendi penance?)





farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 01:43 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
And some day they become a fcat in themselves. Some theories are more accurate then others, some have more facts in the, so to label a theory as fact because you worship science and blow scientists is stupid
If you ever gave this as all or part of an answer in a biology or geology or chemistry or evolution test in a university class, You would be scored completely wrong. I think we can tell when youre blowing smoke . The fact that you have no manners either goes along with your "erzats biker" style of debate.

I havent called you names since our big blow up when I was trying to explain DNA mechanisms to you. I said then that I was gonna try to act like the grown up. Apparently you arent enjoying the same boundary.
spendius
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 02:30 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
looks like spendi is all spittled up


No wonder--you're enough to get a saint spittled up with your silly repetitions about Christianity holding our science back when it's the opposite of the truth and it's been explained to you and it's obvious on the evidence as well. I don't think you understand the unique nature of western science and why it is so different from the science of other times and cultures.

Quote:
and is waiting to act like the indignant paerish priest whose been caught diddling the altarboys.


And your obsession with that stuff is starting to make me think you just like talking about it. Do you think such behaviour would cease if there were no priests? Scout masters were villified in the same way. It's a recruitment problem. Even boxing coaches in boy's clubs have to go through strict vetting procedures here. And taxi drivers. It's a big organisation.

Bottom ploughing!!!! Sheesh. Row cropping!!! Blimey. Irrigation!!!! Good gracious. Now I know you don't understand what I mean. Forms of hoeing.

Give over fm.

Quote:
I still love how you and ionus seem to try to dance around so you wont be pinned in a corner.


Just another assertion. It's you who is pinned in a corner.

Quote:
Now science DOESNT owe anything to Christianity exceptnwhen it does. GOOD LOGIC.


Sure it is. Our Science owes everything to Xtianity.

You don't even understand the significance of western mathematics. You just switch the lights on, start the tractor up and wipe your arse on Charmin' and think they all grew on trees.

Quote:
Your continued silly attacks have no substance and are as meaningless as your references to Bishop Brixen


More empty assertions. You're incurable. Science ain't your bag. You prove it in every post you write.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 02:45 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It must be strange running around with silly ideas like that in your Ed all day.

If I had had you in a corner of the bar old boy I would show you some science which would fry your brain, turn your hair a whiter shade of grey and have you running down the road as fast as your little legs could carry you.

What you know about science could be written on the back of a postage stamp with a slurry gun. Same for wande. With fm I would go up to a shithouse wall.

The "most apt quote" has been doing the rounds since Caractacus was a lad.


And, yet, you come off as a doofus who can barely distinguish between a cotton gin and a half empty gin bottle.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 03:44 pm
@farmerman,
       http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Maler_der_Grabkammer_des_Sennudem_001.jpg/220px-Maler_der_Grabkammer_des_Sennudem_001.jpg

edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 04:13 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

       http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Maler_der_Grabkammer_des_Sennudem_001.jpg/220px-Maler_der_Grabkammer_des_Sennudem_001.jpg
Pretty fancy bottle opener, fm.


0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 05:32 pm
@Jason Proudmoore,
I have to chuckle about the "early sailing people." The Medieval Irish have accounts of "ships" that sailed in the air and of people reaching down to earthbound observers. The old Irish monks and copyists do not say whether those on board the sky ships were "the grays" or the "little green men!"
Jason Proudmoore
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 06:28 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
The Medieval Irish have accounts of "ships" that sailed in the air and of people reaching down to earthbound observers. The old Irish monks and copyists do not say whether those on board the sky ships were "the grays" or the "little green men!"

It could have also meant that the Medieval Irish were fooled by the perception of ships sailing in the horizon, at sea...it may have seemed that those ships were flying...it's amazing how people would make stuff up when they can't explain the nature of anything.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 08:06 pm
@Jason Proudmoore,
Quote:
This is so true...I should use this as my new sig.
Anything would be better than you thinking you are a philosopher.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 08:33 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
You can dance with the best of your bullshit sycophants.
The hypocracy of you is hilarious !
Quote:
Your original statement and the one I hold you to was that the "Religionist state "of England was somehow beholden to the (implied but not written) CHRISTIANITY.
What is going on inside your head ? That was not implied. What was clearly siad, several times, is that religion and science have got alon very well more often than not and what you have is a uniquely USA problem.
Quote:
Most of the scientists were not even Arab or Muslim.
Wrong. Up untill the Mongol invasion of Iraq it was a world leader in science. They were Arab and muslim.
Quote:
science was equated with witchcarft and divination.
More falsehoods. Do you believe in all urban myths ? Calileo was a close friend of the Pope until he very arrogantly and cynically insulted him. Typical scientist really.
Quote:
Youve been a religionist apologist throughout and have leaned on the spendi crap that scinec was dependent on Christianity in Europe and thats bullshit.
I have been a defender of religion, not an apologist, and I am unaware of what spendi's views are....didnt you say in one post that I could make my own mind up but you have abandoned that in a unscientific desperate search for leverage.
Quote:
Keeping em dumb and subjugated was a great way to maintain control (NOt miuch has changed in Evangelical Fundamenatlism). Now today, even the great Arab civiliozations have given up any leadership they once had in science and are a bunch of feudal nations.
I agree.
Quote:
Thats really not what you were trying to spew. Lests stick to the subjects at hand .
So you tell me what I was not trying to say then tell me to stick to the subject at hand ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2010 08:35 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Science in England was hampered by the state religion.
It was so hampered it produced Newton, Darwin and many others.
0 Replies
 
 

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