Narcissism...how normal is it? Or nightmare father II.

Pondering. If the face presented to the world was different from the face presented in private, then these people must have known that the private personna was somehow "not right" and had to be kept hidden.

Doesn't this suggest that they knew they were not as wonderful as they wanted us to think they were? Or am I misunderstanding something?

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@Roberta,

Very likely.

But denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

It is a force that can be stunning in its efficacy.

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@dlowan,

Yeah.

In my case, he does occasionally have flashes of insight, and apologizes... and then poof. It's gone. He doesn't remember the conversation leading up to the apology, doesn't remember the apology, has no idea what I'm talking about or why I have it in for him... etc.

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@dlowan,

indeed

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@Roberta,

One of the traits of the clinical narcissist is the presentation of high self-esteem when, in reality, it's just the opposite. The public persona is a front, with the true nature hidden from almost everyone.

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@sozobe,

HA! Yep, it becomes about you having it in for him. Persecution is another component.

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@dlowan,

I know.

Friends were envious of this "perfect love match".

It wasn't until, as a result of some instinctive understanding, as I tried to extricate myself from this incredibly intense bubble we existed in, that the real conflicts emerged. When I started to question, disagree, say that my view was quite different to his & I was going to go about my own life quite differently... well, that was considered unforgivably disloyal. Like pulling out the crucial props, I suppose.

God knows what a little kid, who depends on her parents for everything, is eventually to make of a relationship with such a father. Such a conflict. You can love, be infuriated by, feel intense compassion for the person, all at once ... all of these things mixed up in one extremely complicated package.

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@Philis,

Philis wrote:

they fail to look into the toilet they just used before they flush you down the drain. It is completely destructive ....

I just read this again a bit more closely. Very well stated, Philis.

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@Roberta,

Quote:

Pondering. If the face presented to the world was different from the face presented in private, then these people must have known that the private personna was somehow "not right" and had to be kept hidden.

Doesn't this suggest that they knew they were not as wonderful as they wanted us to think they were? Or am I misunderstanding something?

It's complicated. Because the person is complicated. And not exactly keen on reflecting on their own behaviour & attitudes.
They can be very loving & caring at times, yet be totally self obsessed, driven & ruthless at other times.
It isn't as though they are one thing or the other. It's a messy mixture.

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@JPB,

Quote:

One of the traits of the clinical narcissist is the presentation of high self-esteem when, in reality, it's just the opposite. The public persona is a front, with the true nature hidden from almost everyone.

That is so spot on.

A very vulnerable position, really.

The "true nature" is only revealed to the chosen, totally trusted person.

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@msolga,

You said it:

Quote:

Such a conflict. You can love, be infuriated by, feel intense compassion for the person, all at once ... all of these things mixed up in one extremely complicated package.

Add hatred and wanting to get them the hell out of your life, but unable to because of said intense compassion and (the unhappiest kingdom of them all)...guilt!

Because they're perfectly decent people who mean well, and they're miserable...except when being recognized for the geniuses they so clearly are!

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@dlowan,

How did you mother cope with your father's narcissism, Deb?
And your siblings?

1 Reply

@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

Because they're perfectly decent people who mean well, and they're miserable...except when being recognized for the geniuses they so clearly are!

Unless they aren't. Perfectly decent people, that is. Narcissism is also a component of other psychopathic behaviors. It's just a matter of which side of the law they're on as to whether they are "just" narcissists or true psychopaths.

Not talking about your dad, of course, and I can't begin to imagine the difficulties for a child having a narcissistic parent. But I definitely understand where the feelings of guilt would come in, particularly for a kid.

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@msolga,

Well, my half brother is a total emotional and functional cripple. But I don't think that my dad bears sole responsibility for that! The poor fella (half brother) lost his mum when he was still a baby, and, because there was no thought that a man could possibly care for a child in those days, he was cared for by two aunts who, for different reasons, were quite toxic for him.

My sister died when she was 10 and I was 8, so I cannot comment about her. She was a wonderful sister.

My mother? I don't know. It was an awful marriage...but I cannot tell who contributed what, as my mum died when I was 14, so I do not have a mature perspective on her and how things affected her, and how she affected things.

I do recall, when I helped my father move, finding his letters to her during their engagement (she was in Sydney) in a box with her decaying wedding veil (shades of Miss Haversham!)

I read a few of them, and recoiled repulsed. They were 1/100 comments about her and how he "felt" about her. The rest was screeds about himself and how wonderfully he had done a zillion things and how clever and fantastic he was.

1 Reply

I pine away and may change into a flower.

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@dlowan,

Quote:

My mother? I don't know. It was an awful marriage...but I cannot tell who contributed what, as my mum died when I was 14, so I do not have a mature perspective on her and how things affected her, and how she affected things.

I do recall, when I helped my father move, finding his letters to her during their engagement (she was in Sydney) in a box with her decaying wedding veil (shades of Miss Haversham!)

I read a few of them, and recoiled repulsed. They were 1/100 comments about her and how he "felt" about her. The rest was screeds about himself and how wonderfully he had done a zillion things and how clever and fantastic he was.

That's it! I will now destroy all those long, convoluted, passionate letters I have in my keeping! (I wish the hell he would destroy mine, but I know he holds onto such things!) I would hate for anyone else to read them! I need a heavy duty shredder & I need it now! Wink

)

But on a serious note, Deb, you've talked on other threads about the difficulty of coming to an understanding of the past, when there are almost no family members who actually shared it with you around anymore. That is very sad & also it makes the task of understanding the past so much more difficult. So you're pretty much stuck with only your own childhood recollections. <Sighing>

But, at the very least, by reading (what you could stand to read of) those letters, you have some (adult) insight into who he was, what his thoughts & preoccupations actually were ....

I can fully understand why you recoiled & felt repulsed by what you discovered though. (It is almost like spying, isn't it? Into intimate & private areas areas where the person would never had dreamed you'd go ...)

Quote:

....They were 1/100 comments about her and how he "felt" about her. The rest was screeds about himself and how wonderfully he had done a zillion things and how clever and fantastic he was.

But it sounds like you've been thinking quite a deal about your father recently. How do you think having a father like this has affected you, in how you go about living your own life? You mentioned jokingly, in your opening post, that you wondered if a narcissist father might mean you, too, could could possess such "tendencies". (Ha. Smile

) How do you think he actually has impacted on the person you are? And don't feel you must answer this if you don't feel comfortable about it, OK? Perfectly understandable if you'd prefer not to.

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@Chumly,

Quote:

I pine away and may change into a flower.

Yes?

Please say more, Chumly.

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(1) reacts to criticism with feelings of rage, shame, or humiliation (even if not expressed)
(2) is interpersonally exploitative, I.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(3) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior / "special" without commensurate achievements)
(4) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(5) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(6) has a sense of entitlement, I.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations, e.g., assumes that he or she does not have to wait in line when others must do so
(7) requires constant attention and admiration, e.g., keeps fishing for compliments
(8) lack of empathy: inability to (genuinely) recognize and experience how others feel, e.g., annoyance and surprise when a friend who is seriously ill cancels a date
(8b) (DSM-IV) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
(9b) (DSM-IV) is preoccupied with feelings of envy

OMG... (if I had one ) ... My wife says all of above about me, and has been telling me that for the last 44 years and she still can't understand that she's got it all terribly wrong and doesn't really understand me .

1 Reply

@tenderfoot,

Quote:

OMG... (if I had one ) ... My wife says all of above about me, and has been telling me that for the last 44 years and she still can't understand that she's got it all terribly wrong and doesn't really understand me .

Goodness me, tenderfoot.
You've been accusing each other of being narcissists for 44 years?
Goodness me!

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Quote:
I pine away and may change into a flower.

Yes?

Please say more, Chumly.

Pssst...he's being Narcissus!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology)

1 Reply

Narcissism...how normal is it? Or nightmare father II.

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