Good Vibes and Omming for Robert

@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

The rituals are a MAJOR part of that label, and I don't think you are a slave to compulsive rituals, are you?

Yes but they are generally not that pointless as OCD ones. For example the one I am obsessed about using things in the right orders, so will never take a fork out of the drawer if there is one in the dishwasher (cuts fork movements down by half) and so on and so forth.

The frenetic part makes me not very ritualistic in terms of schedule but in ways of doing things I'm obsessive about doing them certain ways (usually the most economical in time or effort).

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Now I am going to have to look up the DSM IV R when I get to work!

I quoted from it earlier. You sound like you are talking about OCD, which is only vaguely similar to OCPD.

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@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

Bits of almost every personality disorder fit all of us!!!

It really does have to be several of them, long-lasting, and really greater than the norm!

Very true, basically it gets called a disorder when it interferes negatively with your life to a certain degree.

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@msolga,

But you change your mind about stuff, right, when you are rationally persuaded that you are wrong?

I think the kind of rigidity that is talked about in a disorder is not amenable to any evidence or reason, because it held so anxiously that the person fears disintegration if an important belief is relinquished.

We ALL find that difficult...but that is a different animal from pathological rigidity.

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@Robert Gentel,

Yes, I was thinking of OCD.

Not come across OCPD

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

(cuts fork movements down by half)

I know it's cruel...but that is funny!

Now I have to go out, and, by doing so, make it rain. Ain't NOTHING wrong with MY thinking.

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@dlowan,

Quote:

Obsessive"compulsive personality disorder is often confused with obsessive"compulsive disorder (OCD). Despite the similar names, they are two distinct disorders, although some OCPD individuals also suffer from OCD, and the two are sometimes found in the same family,[18] sometimes along with eating disorders.[19] People experiencing OCPD do not generally feel the need to repeatedly perform ritualistic actions " a common symptom of OCD.

Wikipedia

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert, and I say this in all sincerity, sometimes you only decide to change when you, personally, feel have no option but to do it.

At a point where, whatever it is that you're doing or saying is clearly (to you) doing a helluva lot of harm to yourself, or to others you care about. Or both.

At that point you might start looking for alternative ways of coping with the the aspects of your behaviour that are so concerning to you. Admittedly this is a huge challenge & not one for which any easy solutions can readily be found. But you know, within yourself, when you have reached that point .. & that is the beginning of a journey that is more than likely to be a fruitful one for you, because you so believe in what you are doing. Wherever that journey takes you, to me, it is the intent that's important. And then finding the best way (for you) to what helps in reaching the desired aims of that intent. The "journey" can be as significant as the end point you reach. But that's just my way of seeing & doing things. Whether this way is right for you, or anyone else, I honestly don't know.

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@dlowan,

It is, I make myself laugh all the time about it, wondering how much stress I add to myself for such tiny improvements in economy.

What is the point of perfect economy of fork movement after all? How many seconds a month am I even saving? So I chuckle to myself about how crazy it is but it's clearly a superior choice to the drawer and that perfectionism thing is pathological here so....

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@msolga,

But I like me msolga, I know how I can change, it's basically a cocktail of drugs like Prozac and tranquilizers. But I don't wanna be that doped up and if I trade a few years of life expectancy for being me it's so worth it to me.

I guess while I can agree it's not the best for physical health and all and yes I know it causes problems in my life (that is why it's a disorder after all) but I like me the way I am and don't wanna drug it away.

And I'm pretty functional. I got pretty sick now but it isn't really because of this as I do this all the time and get sick only every few years. I may have made it sound more bleak than it really is, but I'll put it this way:

A2K wouldn't exist if I weren't this way. I would work all day for my day job and then work all night for a2k. I took my vacations from day job as working vacations to do a2k. For years I lived on a couch and worked 20 hours a day 7 days a week to pull off both and there is no way I would not have long given up on it if I weren't OCPD.

And then there's a lot of other really emotionally draining projects I do offline that I'm very proud of (but that are personal in nature). Without this disorder I would have less bandwidth (less productivity) and I like what I do with it.

It has limitations I can never fully get rid of, and yes there are many spots I could have suppressed it more than I did, but I'm a very happy individual (I say I'm stressed because I see the physical indications of it but I am rarely sad). It might not shine through here as much but most people around me will tell you I am a clowning, goofy and almost always cheerful guy.

So I'm good, I don't want a personality makeover at all. It's my greatest strength as well as my greatest weakness and they've decided to call it a draw.

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@Robert Gentel,

Well, no doubt forks are as useful a charm against the Great Yawning Abyss as swords, shields and nukes!!! And fundamentalist religion and politics. And much healthier for everyone else. As long as we can laugh at our oddities. Which I observe you to be extremely good at, much of the time.

We sometimes talk about our various weirdnesses at work, especially the things that drive us nuts, that others wouldn't even notice. They are a true source of hilarity (and are useful to know about in a team where we have to share so many spaces, and it is highly worth not driving someone else nuts without any knowledge that you are doing so!)

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

It's my greatest strength as well as my greatest weakness and they've decided to call it a draw.

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@dlowan,

I just think almost everything is funny. This week something god-awful happened in our business but it's funny as hell. A co-worker and I labored over the perfect pitch for a domain purchase negotiation, we completely over-think every detail and every angle before I send off our carefully crafted offer and then he accidentally replies all (I'd bcc'ed him) to the guy we are negotiating with and says we should figure out how much more we can actually pay than I just had offered in case it doesn't work.

Now the guy is playing hard to get and the price has more than quadrupled. Co-worker is all beat up about it and feeling ashamed, and I think it's the funniest thing all week. It's just hilarious how perfect the pitch was and how hard we though about it (we spent almost an hour just talking about the email I was gonna write) for it to all go poof like that. I was frustrated for all of ten minutes before I began to think of it as totally being worth the money we are gonna spend as a result (hey, you get what you pay for in humor sometimes too). It's a cosmic irony that I'll remember for years.

I'm lucky to just be very happy I guess. I think the world is very funny. The stuff I describe doesn't cause me to suffer the way most people seem to think, I'm stupidly happy almost all the time (one reason the stress gets too far physically, because I don't mind it at all most of the time and find it funny too).

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Good that you're doing better.

And good that you got the health care you needed.

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

But I like me msolga, I know how I can change, it's basically a cocktail of drugs like Prozac and tranquilizers. I don't wanna be that doped up.

And why shouldn't you like you? I would find the idea of a cocktail of drugs (especially long term) pretty abhorrent, too. In the short term perhaps, if I felt confident they were "helping". But is there no other alternative to drugs? (assuming you could be looking) ? I honestly don't know.

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And I'm pretty functional.

I know. I see plenty of evidence of that. Not that my perception matters more than yours.

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And then there's a lot of other projects I do that I'm very proud of.

I have absolutely no problem in believing that, Robert.

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A2K wouldn't exist if I weren't this way. I would work all day for my day job and then work all night for a2k.

I know that, too. All too well. It sometimes makes me feel guilty that we don't all fully appreciate that. A2K has been an amazing achievement, largely driven by you, at your own expense, Robert.

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So I'm good, I don't want a personality makeover at all.

Heavens! You didn't interpret my words as suggesting you needed a personality make over did you?

I wouldn't suggest anyone attempt to do such a thing, Robert. Perish the thought!

No, that isn't at all what I was trying to say. Perhaps the intent of my words is clearer to me than they've come across to you? Wink

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Heavens! You didn't interpret my words as suggesting you needed a personality make over did you?

I wouldn't suggest anyone attempt to do such a thing, Robert. Perish the thought!

No, that isn't at all what I was trying to say. Perhaps my words are clearer to me than they are to you?

What I'm saying is that that is pretty much my only choice if I'm going to change at all. I can be me (which includes fighting against my nature as much as I can while remaining happy) or I can tranquilize me away.

I don't think you were intentionally suggesting a makeover but you seem to think that I need to change for my own sake and what I was trying to say is that I think you think I sacrifice or suffer more than I really do. I don't see this as suffering most of the time. Occasionally when I see my perfectionism getting in the way of my productivity (I very frequently do much more than is needed and should cut corners more, I can't delegate well unless you give me incredibly talented people who also fundamentally think the way I do about the work and who are also very laid back and can handle my insanity, this is why I can pretty much only program with Nick) that causes the conflicting manifestations of the OCPD to make me frustrated, I am obsessed with being both perfectly productive and perfect and they are not mutually compatible all the times. And yes I drive myself to the breaking point a lot, but I get over the breakdown very quickly and move on so it's not that bad for me. Gotta be hell on my body to be putting out the fight or flight signals to my sympathetic nervous system all day every day but it isn't half bad to the brain of me.

So in those cases I do need to suppress my nature somehow and I will sometimes cause myself more problems by not doing so but I just think I'm better off than the disorder leads you to believe because I have it. To you it might sound like more of a personal hell than the normal it is to me.

For example, I don't see a2k as a sacrifice at all, I see it as one of the coolest things I have been fortunate enough to be a part of. There are times it's a pain but hell even sex can be a pain sometimes. Anything can.

I guess if you have this, it's not that bad as long as you are happy, it's just the way you are. One of the biggest reasons I suppress it at all is because those who don't can find it tremendously annoying (and can't comprehend how I find it normal) and I have to share this tiny world with them so I gots to be more like them.

But if I had my druthers everyone would be like me instead.

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

I don't think you were intentionally suggesting a makeover but you seem to think that I need to change for my own sake

No. Not at all. Only if your it was your perception that you were causing yourself or others unnecessary pain.

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what I was trying to say is that I think you think I sacrifice or suffer more than I really do. I don't see this as suffering most of the time.

OK. Then I've somehow formed a wrong impression. I'm sorry about that, Robert.

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I can't delegate well unless you give me incredibly talented people who also fundamentally think the way I do about the work and who are also very laid back and can handle my insanity

But I don't think you are "insane". And neither do you! Smile

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I am obsessed with being both perfectly productive and perfect and they are not mutually compatible all the times. And yes I drive myself to the breaking point a lot, but I get over the breakdown very quickly and move on so it's not that bad for me.

Ah. But me, I wish it wasn't so hard on you as a matter of course, Robert. But I accept that this is how you do things .. this is who you are. If anything, I'm being inappropriately protective of your health. But as if anyone could tell me a more sensible, less discomforting way to go about conducting my own life? Wink

I hear what you're saying.

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I guess if you have this, it's not that bad as long as you are happy, it's just the way you are. One of the biggest reasons I suppress it at all is because those who don't can find it tremendously annoying (and can't comprehend how I find it normal) and I have to share this tiny world with them so I gots to be more like them.

I can understand that. Maybe they could move a bit in their narrow perceptions to understand that your "tiny world" is just as valid as theirs? I happen to think that your "tiny world" is a terrific personal achievement. You should be happy with what you've achieved. But I've said that already, haven't i? Smile

Quote:

But if I had my druthers everyone would be like me instead.

That could be pretty intense, Robert! Wink

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@Robert Gentel,

God...I'd take months to get over that!!!! If I were your co-worker, not if I were you. But a lot of bosses would have been awful about that mistake, you know.

I'll never forget working late at night on some super secret cabinet document, and, with enormous relief, printing the goddam thing off. We went to get it at the printer, so we could deliver the smegging thing to The Powers That Were, and get the hell out, only to discover that, for some unimaginable reason, it hadn't printed where everything ELSE from that computer printed, but was pouring out of some printer somewhere in the fifteen story building, and we had no way of knowing where!!! We ran around like rabbits in a Kafkaesque nightmare for hours before finding the damn thing in a place our computer should never even have been connected to! And, the Powers That Were really DID think it was top secret....(I though t they were nuts, but so it goes.)

I'm such a worry-wart that I'm having to work quite hard not to let something my boss did ruin my long week-end. She left a message saying she wanted to see me on Friday, but, when I got it, and called back, she was busy. She said she'd grab me while I was at lunch, and didn't...then she went home without seeing me.

Of course, I assume I am in trouble (I have been told off about more things in the four and a half years I have been where I am than in the prior 17 years!) and now I have to wait days to find out what the hell for and how much. It might not BE trouble, but try telling my brain THAT!

I never left messages saying I wanted to see someone when I was responsible for people, without adding that it was nothing to worry about! If it WAS something to worry about, I didn't leave messages, but just caught them when I saw that they had some time.

This is because my level of paranoia is common.

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@Robert Gentel,

You know, you HAVE been sounding a bit stressed by your nature lately.

Being you, I am sure you are aware of the non-drug stuff that might ameliorate things a bit (should you ever want them ameliorated?) You know...CBT/mindfulness stuff.

The whole debate re anxiety related stuff moved away from drugs as treatment of choice ages ago.

Just a thought, if you ever were interested. I have lots of resource stuff around.

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

But I don't think you are "insane".

You've never had to work with me. Nick's one of the most laid back and good natured people I know so he can put up with it and while I've never talked about it with him by name (he knows what I'm like after all, and to the uninitiated the acronym doesn't illuminate as often as it stigmatizes) he calls me crazy. This month (due to our crazy work load) he told me I'm not allowed my usual share of crazy and need to tone it down.

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And neither do you!

Like the saying goes: All the world is mad save for me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee.

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@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

God...I'd take months to get over that!!!! If I were your co-worker, not if I were you. But a lot of bosses would have been awful about that mistake, you know.

Yeah, but we are good friends and nobody is anyone's boss so I think he'll be fine. He was beating himself up about it a lot but it might not have made a difference anyway other than being embarrassing for us.

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... but was pouring out of some printer somewhere in the fifteen story building, and we had no way of knowing where!!! We ran around like rabbits in a Kafkaesque nightmare for hours before finding the damn thing in a place our computer should never even have been connected to! ...

That's pretty damn funny. Usually that scene is limited to one floor. Office stuff is extra funny to me, especially now that I am working on this company to be the anti-thesis of it all.

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Of course, I assume I am in trouble (I have been told off about more things in the four and a half years I have been where I am than in the prior 17 years!) and now I have to wait days to find out what the hell for and how much. It might not BE trouble, but try telling my brain THAT!

Yeah but honestly I think your boss should have considered that too. Can't you approach your boss? That sounds messed up.

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I never left messages saying I wanted to see someone when I was responsible for people, without adding that it was nothing to worry about! If it WAS something to worry about, I didn't leave messages, but just caught them when I saw that they had some time.

My corporate experience was mostly on the much lighter and frivolous side. I was a bad boss (just not boss material) but my folks were really never in trouble (both because I don't really roll that way and because the few people I managed were self-motivated folks like Nick). So if I called them it was always something stupid I was doing in the office like getting them to chair joust with me or office golf. Or we'd just take off to the beach or go throw a Frisbee in the parking lot. And ya know what? We were the most productive people in that very fast-paced company. Work hard and play hard! That is how corporate culture should be.

Man those days were fun, I was just reminiscing about it with Nick, we did some really crazy stuff back then. I hit a real golf ball about 40 yards into the VP's office without breaking anything (dumb luck) and a rubber ball into a cube with two people in it from the same distance (they yelled at me). Then there was the cannon ball into a huge box of Styrofoam that left bits of Styrofoam clinging to the ceiling and walls for months (I cleaned it up as best as I could but it was a mess so I put up a sign saying that this super docile Japanese girl had done it) It hurt like hell because I really gave it my all and jumped as high as I could, tucked and landed. The Styrofoam wasn't as shock absorbent as I thought it would be and it was like doing a cannon ball 3 feet up and landing on the floor on my ass. It made a huge thud (heard two stories down) and damn near broke my back. But the cloud of Styrofoam looked like a nuclear cloud and stuck to the whole office. It was so worth it. Mention it to Nick one day if you want to see him doubled over laughing for a minute or two.

Ahh those were the good old days. I was told to start wearing a tie when the investors in the company were coming so I had our graphic artist make a paper one that said "I hate ties" and taped it to my shirt. That was a very fun company till it grew a bit (and till I became a director and they actually started trying to make me stop dressing so casual) and then it was time for me to move on.

Now Nick and I work together as partners and can goof off as much as we like. I'm very glad that we have this opportunity so that's one reason I try to work hard to make it viable (it's not quite there yet).

It's bold and scary to try but I highly recommend it. Burn the candle at both ends to build what you dream of, and risk it all for it. Even if you fail it's more fun, and the worst that can happen is money stuff. You won't die or anything. It's a great feeling I tell you. Scary and thrilling.

If you see it that way, then you can't be afraid of your boss, the best your boss can do is be the impetus to your adventure and for me realizing that while stuck in the rat race was hugely liberating. But you must be very risk averse as well?

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Good Vibes and Omming for Robert

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