45
   

Was Hitler good for the World in any way?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 02:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
The "real" answers about US involvement in WWII - and before.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_the_US_become_involved_in_World_War_2
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 02:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Umm, excuse me, but until Japan attacked Pearl Harbour the US it did let German aggression stand.


Thank you for supporting my point.


I thought your point was that "had it not been for Hitler"! Seems to me that the identity of the perpetrator had no bearing on US actions.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 02:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Thank you for supporting my point
Quote:
Whether the Americans would have declared war on Germany had not Hitler made the decision for them is one of the great unanswered questions of history. The US had, of course, been completely isolationist prior to 7 December 1941 - Roosevelt's Lend-Lease program had got through Congress by one, repeat one, vote. The answer is that yes, probably the US would have entered the war against Germany, but possibly not on the scale that it did, and almost certainly not with Germany being given priority over Japan. But nobody will ever know for sure.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 02:47 pm
@Wilso,
Quote:
I thought your point was that "had it not been for Hitler"! Seems to me that the identity of the perpetrator had no bearing on US actions.


I said that the American people had no intention of joining the fight, that we would have let Germany build the Empire, had it not been for Hitler. You supported my claim that we are prepared to let the Empire be born.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 02:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hitler's declaration of war I had not read before, but it is interesting.
His Dec 11 1941 speech in the Reichstag:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler_declares_war.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 03:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawk, That's also a bit misleading without explaining the simple fact that the US naval forces were given the order to shoot at German ships before the declaration of war.

There's a huge difference between technicalities and reality; if we were given orders to shoot at German vessels, that's war in anybody's language.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 03:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are right about that, lend lease was not entering the war but the order to the Navy was. There is a good argument that America's leaders were determined to enter AMerica into the war, regardless of what the Americans wanted, that they engineered our engagment. Hitler did have justification for declaring war against us.

Quote:
In April, he promised help to Yugoslavia and Greece under the Lend-Lease Act. At the end of April, this man recognized the Yugoslav and Greek emigre governments, and once more against international law, blocked the Yugoslav and Greek assets. From the middle of April onwards, American watch over the Western Atlantic by U.S.A. patrols was extended, and reports were made to the British. On the 26th April, Roosevelt transferred to the British 20 motor-torpedo-boats and at the same time, British warships were being repaired in U.S. ports. On 5th May, the illegal arming and repairing of Norwegian ships for England took place. On 4th June American troop transports arrived in Greenland, to build airdromes. On 9th June, came the first British report that, on Roosevelt's orders, a U.S. warship had attacked a German U-boat with depth charges near Greenland. On 4th June, German assets in the U.S.A. were illegally blocked. On the 7th June Roosevelt demanded under mendacious pretexts, that German consuls should be withdrawn and German consulates closed. He also demanded the closing of the German Press Agency, Trans ocean, the German Information Library and the German Reichs bank Central Office. On 6th and 7th July, Iceland, which is within the German fighting zone, was occupied by American Forces or the orders of Roosevelt. He intended, first of all, to force Germany to make war and to make the German U-boat warfare as ineffective as it was in 1915-16. At the same time, he promised American help to the Soviet Union. On 10th June, the Navy Minister, Knox, suddenly announced an American order to shoot at Axis warships. On 4th September, the U.S. destroyer Greer obeying orders, operated with British aircraft against German U-boats in the Atlantic. Five days later, a German U-boat noticed the U.S. destroyer acting as escort in a British convoy. On 11th September Roosevelt finally made a speech in which he confirmed and repeated his order to fire on all Axis ships. On 29th September, U.S. escort-vessels attacked a German U-boat with depth charges east of Greenland. On 7th October, the U.S. destroyer Kearney acting as an escort vessel for Britain, again attacked German U-boat with depth-charges. Finally, on 6th November U.S. forces illegally seized the German steamer, Odenwald, and took it to an American port where the crew were taken prisoner.

I will pass over the insulting attacks made by this so-called President against me. That he calls me a gangster is uninteresting. After all, this expression was not coined in Europe but in America, no doubt because such gangsters are lacking here. Apart from this, I cannot be insulted by Roosevelt for I consider him mad just as Wilson was. I don't need to mention what this man has done for years in the same way against Japan. First he incites war then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war, not without calling God to witness the honesty of his attack-in the approved manner of an old Freemason. I think you have all found it a relief that now, at last, one State has been the first to take the step of protest against his historically unique and shame less ill-treatment of truth, and of right-which protest this man has desired and about which he cannot complain. The fact that the Japanese Government, which has been negotiating for year with this man, has at last become tired of being mocked by him in such an unworthy way, fills us all, the German people, and think, all other decent people in the world, with deep satisfaction.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler_declares_war.html
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 01:33 pm
he taught us how to bring war better. Razz

isnt that a good thing? Sad

ifz hee culdz teech me to type we beez good.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 05:37 pm
@fresco,
The Wall Street Stock Market Crash and Hoover's non-response are equally culpable by inflicting the world with a depression where millions suffered in losing their jobs, millions lives destroyed, hundreds committing suicide and millions losing their hard-earned wealth and savings. This depression helped Hitler and various right regimes that resulted in WWII. Both events should be regarded with equal weight. The criminality of financial manipulations has been somehow not been given enough weight.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 06:01 pm
@talk72000,
Do we detect here a whiff of the "Zionist" conspiracy theory, with Hitler as the unappreciated "cleansing agent" ?
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 06:12 pm
@fresco,
You said it not me what makes financial manipulation zionist? One of the biggest crooks was Joe Kennedy, father of the late JFK who I believe is Irish.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 06:28 pm
It's a specious argument because "the Great Depression" refers to an event which took place in North America, and not in Europe. The situation in the United States and Canada was exacerbated by the collapse of agricultural markets as Europe recovered from the effects of the Great War, and began to rebuild their own agricultural sectors. What happened on Wall Street had no appreciable affect on Germany, which had not had a financial stake in the United States for more than 1
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 06:33 pm
@Setanta,
It was a worldwide event.

Quote:
The Great Depression had devastating effects in virtually every country, rich and poor. Personal income, tax revenue, profits and prices dropped, and international trade plunged by a half to two-thirds. Unemployment in the United States rose to 25%, and in some countries rose as high as 33%.[3] Cities all around the world were hit hard, especially those dependent on heavy industry. Construction was virtually halted in many countries. Farming and rural areas suffered as crop prices fell by approximately 60 percent.[4][5][6] Facing plummeting demand with few alternate sources of jobs, areas dependent on primary sector industries such as cash cropping, mining and logging suffered the most.[7]

Countries started to recover by the mid-1930s, but in many countries the negative effects of the Great Depression lasted until the start of World War II.[8]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 06:41 pm
It's a specious argument because "the Great Depression" refers to an event which took place in North America, and not in Europe. The situation in the United States and Canada was exacerbated by the collapse of agricultural markets as Europe recovered from the effects of the Great War, and began to rebuild their own agricultural sectors. What happened on Wall Street had no appreciable affect on Germany, which had not had a financial stake in the United States for 15 years at the time of the collapse.

In fact, if you were to bother to inform yourself, you'd find that no recent or contemporary historian who has studied the situation carefully buys that old Nazi propaganda bullshit to the effect that reparations payments and inflation created a financial crisis which the NSDAP exploited to get elected. By 1923, Germany was not only no longer making even a cosmetic attempt to pay the reparations, the Weimar government had engineered hyperinflation in order to make any payments extracted from them worthless. In fact, by 1925 savings by Germans amounted to more than six billion marks, and by 1927 that figure had risen to more than seven billion marks. In 1931, the German reparations debt was forgiven outright. When Hitler came to power in 1933, he basically "solved" the employment problems of Germany by his massive expansion of the military-industrial sector.

One thing and one thing only created the Second World War in Europe and that was fascism in both its original (Italian) form and in its German form. Claims about the economic responsibility of the West are simply repetitions of a political myth which the NSDAP exploited to their benefit. They echo the predictions of John Maynard Keynes in 1920, which predictions were never borne out. Keynes had been a part of Lloyd George's delegation to the 1919 Peace Conference in Paris, and had been affronted that no one paid any attention to him, so he went home and wrote his book.

It may not be your intent, but you are basically just peddling NSDAP propaganda. Don't feel bad, though, most people continue to believe that bullshit.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 06:54 pm
I don't know why it posted part of my response before i had finished. Read the entire response here. Your contention is that the economic situation created the conditions for the Second World War. That's just bullshit.

You need to read Margaret MacMillan, Étienne Mantoux, William Keylor and a host of other contemporary authors on the subject. Keynes predicted that German iron and steel production would collapse, but by 1927 they were up a third over prewar production. Keynes predicted that savings would collapse, leading to economic crisis, but as i've alread noted, the Germans increased their personal savings by significantly large amounts by the late 1920s. Keynes predicted that Germany would be unable to export coal, but in 1920 they were exporting millions of tons of coal and over 30 million tons by the late 1920s. He predicted that mining efficiency would tank, but that proved false as well.

Note two things--the first is that your source at Wikipedia notes that European economies had begun to recover by the mid-1930s (not so in the United States). More significantly, though, note that your source does not support your claim that the economic conditions resulting from the Wall Street collapse lead to the rise of Hitler and the outbreak of war in Europe. You have made a claim that you have failed to support.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 10:15 am
@Setanta,
Since I'm not at home, I can't look at my own sources - and since this internet connection isn't free, I'm not going to look up further details either.

But: we (= Germany) are still paying reparation debts - about 50 million Euros are still open and all will be paid next year.
(Paying was stopped in 1953 by an agreement in London and re-started after the unification of Germany in 1990.)
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 11:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Can't argue with that! When people say 'put your money where your mouth is,' Germany has it in spades.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 11:41 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yes, Walter, but i didn't include that information, as it was not relevant to pointing out that the claim about the crippling of the German economy being cause of World War II is false. In fact, the Weimar government borrowed heavily from the United States in order to pay England and France, before the rest of the reparations debt was finally forgiven in 1931. I think the bulk of the German debt was to the United States. What i have most recently read is that the FRG began to once again finance the debt to the U.S. in the 1980s, and began repaying the entire debt to the U.S. after re-unification in 1989.

However, the issue to which i was addressing my remarks is the Versailles Diktat myth, which continues to be a popular, shallow and false claim about the causes of World War II. Although it is surely only rarely the intent, it is functionally apologetics for the NSDAP and Herr Hitler.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 06:44 pm
To return to the thread title without Hitler and WWII, 70-80% of Europe, North Africa and maybe 60% of North America and Asia would be populated by different people. Maybe the all those in this thread would not be here nor Apple, Microsoft and a lot of the baby boomers and their kids as the war made massive population movement i.e. refugees, troop movements, factory fill-ins and 50 million deaths. If there was no war half of the baby boomers parents would have married other people maybe even those who died but would have lived if there was no Hitler war. The war resulted in a lot of innovative technology.

The real problem was the lack of proper rules for the financial industry which allowed normal people to get caught in the greed and do all kinds of nasty things but were not illegal. Germany too was a new nation created with Chancellor Bismark's 'Blood and Iron' as previously it was a collection of german states. France was the dominant continental European. Germany was a modern nation without the political maturity of England and France which was had the Magna Carta and the guillotine. Kaiser Wilhelm anf Hitler abused their power and Germany did not have the tradition of curtaling this executive power.

Quote:
the 1930 U.S. Smoot"Hawley Tariff Act and retaliatory tariffs in other countries, exacerbated the collapse in global trade


Quote:
The common view among economic historians is that the Great Depression ended with the advent of World War II. Many economists believe that government spending on the war caused or at least accelerated recovery from the Great Depression. However, some consider that it did not play a great role in the recovery, although it did help in reducing unemployment.[1][44][45]

The massive rearmament policies leading up to World War II helped stimulate the economies of Europe in 1937"39. By 1937, unemployment in Britain had fallen to 1.5 million. The mobilization of manpower following the outbreak of war in 1939 finally ended unemployment.[8]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 01:51 am
This thread is specifically about Hitler. A historical narrative which ignores or plays down his pathological character traits is irrelevant. Setanta's point that Hitler and the Nazi's exploited a particular view of events is valid whether or not the view itself is.
 

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