11
   

Democrats and socialism

 
 
A Lone Voice
 
  0  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 12:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
So if you would be kind enough to reply to my first question:

Why do you call taxing for basic infrastructure needs socialist?
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 12:30 pm
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:

So if you would be kind enough to reply to my first question:

Why do you call taxing for basic infrastructure needs socialist?


Basic infrastructure needs could be met by private, for profit organizations; what do YOU call it when this option is not chosen, and instead resources are pooled and used to pay for non-profit services, dedicated to that purpose only? It is collective ownership of a resource that serves all.

Cycloptichorn
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 03:32 pm
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:

A socialist govt, like a fascist govt or any other repressive form of governing, is eventually totalitarian in nature.

Representative govts, not so much...




Well, you see, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland had had some dozens of socialist governments - actually still has got one.

You certainly might have the idea that the British monarchy is is totalitarian, but that's how that country is governed since centuries.


There are a couple of other European countries with socialist governments as well, by the way - all have a representative form of government, elected mainly in the form of proportional representation.

0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 Feb, 2010 04:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


Basic infrastructure needs could be met by private, for profit organizations; what do YOU call it when this option is not chosen, and instead resources are pooled and used to pay for non-profit services, dedicated to that purpose only? It is collective ownership of a resource that serves all.

Cycloptichorn


As I stated, any civil representative society will have taxes levied for the common good. That certainly doesn't make it socialism, as socialism is commonly defined.

An example of a country with a private, for profit government system where some form of taxes is not levied?

Wouldn't you agree that socialist countries are much more likely to slip into a totalitarian system of govt, such a communism, rather than a representative/capitalistic country?

It has, after all, happened more times than not...

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 01:05 am
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:
That certainly doesn't make it socialism, as socialism is commonly defined.

What do you consider the "common definition of socialism"?
A Lone Voice wrote:

Wouldn't you agree that socialist countries are much more likely to slip into a totalitarian system of govt, such a communism, rather than a representative/capitalistic country?

It has, after all, happened more times than not...


Some examples would be nice.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 07:05 am
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Wouldn't you agree that socialist countries are much more likely to slip into a totalitarian system of govt, such a communism, rather than a representative/capitalistic country?

It has, after all, happened more times than not...


Walter asked for examples, but i suspect we'd get that kind of idiotic **** which equates National Socialism with leftist ideology just because they used the word socialist.

You should get together with Okie, he believes that simple-minded right=good, left=bad horseshit, too.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:37 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Walter asked for examples, but i suspect we'd get that kind of idiotic **** which equates National Socialism with leftist ideology just because they used the word socialist.

You should get together with Okie, he believes that simple-minded right=good, left=bad horseshit, too.


Well, that might be. But since That Single Voice wrote about the term "socialist" as how it is commonly understood, I suppose that it's a reference to the Socialist International as the only worldwide representation of Socialism ...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:42 am
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:


As I stated, any civil representative society will have taxes levied for the common good. That certainly doesn't make it socialism, as socialism is commonly defined.


Those levied taxes could be paying for-profit companies. Instead, they pay non-profit companies because that's what the people want and we realize that not all situations deserve to be profited off. These represent socialistic elements in our society - collective ownership of common goods. The strongest societies will mix this with Capitalism.

Quote:
An example of a country with a private, for profit government system where some form of taxes is not levied?


Who was talking about that? I certainly wasn't.

Cycloptichorn
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 06:34 pm
@Setanta,
What is it with leftists and the personal attacks? Seriously, we can't have a discussion without resorting to this nonsense? I thought you guys were supposed to open minded?

Anyway, I had that work thing going on today, and just now have the opportunity to respond to Walter. You know how that goes, right?

But I have to go in for OT shortly; you'll excuse me if I don't get back to his response right away?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 06:36 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Wouldn't you agree that socialist countries are much more likely to slip into a totalitarian system of govt, such a communism, rather than a representative/capitalistic country?

No, I wouldn't say that at all.

Germany was hardly a socialist country when it became totalitarian.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 06:41 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I believe the first, and best, example would be the Soviets. A revolution, yes, but they initially tried to implement socialism. Worked for them, too, until Stalin, wouldn't you agree. From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution, right?

I believe it was Lenin who said socialism was just a step to communism?

Others? Cuba, Cambodia... And wouldn't you agree Venezuela is on its way, as soon as it appears Chavez will lose his first election?

But I'm always looking to learn something about history and the world, if you have a different opinion?
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 06:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The absence of any form of government would probably result in anarchy, right? You can't name a for profit country, because one has never existed.

So with your line of reasoning, ANY govt is automatically socialism?
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 07:20 pm
I have yet to see a definition of "socialism" offered by anyone on this thread.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 11:23 pm
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:

The absence of any form of government would probably result in anarchy, right? You can't name a for profit country, because one has never existed.

So with your line of reasoning, ANY govt is automatically socialism?



No, but Firefighters are not what people typically think of when they think of 'government.'

Cycloptichorn
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 11:28 pm
@A Lone Voice,
In what, pray tell, does the alleged personal attack consist? You have made a statement which is consonant with Okie's thesis that all totalitarian states are of necessity (in his thinking, by definition) leftist. There is no insult in asking if you subscribe to the same simple-minded thinking.
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 11:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

No, but Firefighters are not what people typically think of when they think of 'government.'

Cycloptichorn
[/quote

Really? Point me to a poll or something that backs this up?

I will admit I found it hilarious (but sad; we've become so ignorant in some ways) seeing the 'Govt hands off my medicare' signs during the health care debate... sigh
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 11:43 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Merry Andrew wrote:

I have yet to see a definition of "socialism" offered by anyone on this thread.


Please, tell us...
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 11:53 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:

Walter asked for examples, but i suspect we'd get that kind of idiotic **** which equates National Socialism with leftist ideology just because they used the word socialist.

You should get together with Okie, he believes that simple-minded right=good, left=bad horseshit, too.


Why would you suspect anything without asking? Pretty closed minded, don't ya think?

Why would you believe I would subscribe to the "simple-minded right=good, left=bad horseshit," too?

What do you consider evil? You do oppose totalitarian govts in any form? Or not?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 11:59 pm
I have no good reason to believe that evil exists. Certainly i deplore totalitarian governments. My assumptions about what you likely believe were based upon your comment about the likelihood that left-wing governments would become dictatorships. In fact, history affords far more examples of right-wing government becoming totalitarian.

Quote:
Wouldn't you agree that socialist countries are much more likely to slip into a totalitarian system of govt, such a communism, rather than a representative/capitalistic country?


That's your original comment. It was this the lead me to suspect that you were using the same simple-minded formula which Okie uses.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 12:02 am
By the way, socialism is a political system, and capitalism is an economic system--apples and oranges. Your remark assumes that a country with a socialist political system cannot also be representative and capitalist, which is an absurdity.
 

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