Missing in action: Where is the mind?

@Fido,

Quote:

The sun to a man mired in mud and rain for days on end will never have the same meaning as to that one suffering draught; nor will it have the same meaning as one growing crops for his survival who need not only rain, but sunny days...

Precisely. But this only confirms my point. The different relationships each man has to the sun makes the sun mean different things to each man.

To a farmer, rain in the summer means good things. To someone who's planning to spend the summer on the beach, rain ruins everything. You see? What rain means to either of them is neither in the rain or in the person, it's in the relationship between the two, and in that relationship lies the very context we tend to call reality...

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@Cyracuz,

are you saying the context is not real? So where does the relantion comes from?

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

It is just a jumble of relationships in a kind of hierarchy. Some of them are the foundations, or contexts, of others, but then again, suddenly, the ones that are the context for one scenario we may examine are the very relationships we may examine next time, and then a different set of relationships may be the context. I guess it's what's called a tangled hierarchy, but don't quote me on that.

The point is that we will never find a solid or absolute foundation of understanding that we can point to as being the context in which meaning emerges, because it's always another relationship between different aspects of perception.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

It is just a jumble of relationships in a kind of hierarchy. Some of them are the foundations, or contexts, of others, but then again, suddenly, the ones that are the context for one scenario we may examine are the very relationships we may examine next time, and then a different set of relationships may be the context. I guess it's what's called a tangled hierarchy, but don't quote me on that.

The point is that we will never find a solid or absolute foundation of understanding that we can point to as being the context in which meaning emerges, because it's always another relationship between different aspects of perception.

You are saying you understand what is going on and it is confusion, or madness or anarchy when if you did understand it, you would be able to describe it in detail... Well; allow me!!! What ever has meaning has value... The two are synonymous... The value and meaning of any individual object, as a physical form has a subjective relationship to an individual life and to the life of humanity how ever that group is determined, as family, as community, as nation, etc... Life is meaning, the only true meaning, without which nothing; but we see that meaning reflected in all necessary objects outside of our individual selves... We value water, and find more meaning in it the more we are without it because it is essential to our lives, and so it is with all things right down to all we do not value because we find no need in them...

The graduation of value is related to the necessity and value we give to our lives.... Some value little what they have much of, and so trash until they find they can finally put a price on the priceless; but they do not trash anything for free, but in the process of getting what they feel they most need for their lives...If we find meaning and value in a moral form like freedom though the freedom of one causes the destruction of an environment all depend upon then we are suffering a false economy that is destroying what is needed in order for a few to enjoy what all must be forced to live without because in a rational world the limits of freedom are found when ones freedom injures anothers life...

The problem lies in the fact that our meanings, our forms, physical and moral forms are all considered as absolutes, as monads... Freedom as a form is an absolute and the reality of freedom is that it meets and bounds on the freedom of others... All forms are absolutely pure, and only that quality, and yet speaking of moral forms we find so much similarity between the virtues, and so much similarities between the vices that they can hardly be defined at all apart from all the rest... Why we value one and fear the other is that we need the virtues to live, and know death lures by vices the weak and unsuspecting spirit..

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
The sun to a man mired in mud and rain for days on end will never have the same meaning as to that one suffering draught; nor will it have the same meaning as one growing crops for his survival who need not only rain, but sunny days...

Precisely. But this only confirms my point. The different relationships each man has to the sun makes the sun mean different things to each man.

To a farmer, rain in the summer means good things. To someone who's planning to spend the summer on the beach, rain ruins everything. You see? What rain means to either of them is neither in the rain or in the person, it's in the relationship between the two, and in that relationship lies the very context we tend to call reality...

To know the meaning of any object we must inquire of some subject... Life is the essential element to meaning for nothing means anything to the dead.... Certainly we are not reasonable nor capable of rational behavior; but only because so long as we can only conceive of ourselves individually we have no sense of organic humanity and the life of human kind in time... We are of the moment and live for the day... Primitive peoples though without any technology as we know it at least had time... They had their place in the world and in the universe... The could practice true economy... They could plan for tomorrow, for next year, for many years, and measure out their resources so all had a share because individual survival was impossible, and individual life was short; and only the life of the people was long... If their meanings and values were different from our own it is because our vision is so short... What we do not need at this moment for ourselves we find little meaning in, and consider it all subjective which it will always be to some extent, or another...

Only when we can grasp the element of time in our lives will anything have more meaning than our own... The metaphysics of man individually created is destroying this earth we all need for our survival... If we only could see that all life is only one life beginning with one life handed on in links of a great chain we hope will never end; then only will we find meaning in the life of human kind, and support all that makes human life possible...

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

...multi purpose and versatility won´t take the operation of a true specific function of relation which is at work Cyr...because something that justify´s something else, needs itself justification, its operating value in that layer of context is not false...the fact is, either it functions or it don´t, think upon that !

1 Reply

@Fido,

Quote:

To know the meaning of any object we must inquire of some subject... Life is the essential element to meaning for nothing means anything to the dead....

...here I partially don´t agree Fido...the thing is meaning is just, to use your favourite expression, another FORM of expressing real value, just as value itself a way of expressing the importance of a function for a system...what I mean is even if the relation is purely in between objects without subjects, although you don´t have the presence of meaning as a form, you can still have its most direct "cousin" in place, which is systemic value importance based on functionality relevancy, working as a less "evolved" more abstract version of meaning...complexity and not necessarily awareness or consciousness gets that all around us in nature !
(Example: ...algorithms that establish what shuts down first and last in an adapting system, what is more and less relevant...)

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...where´s the mind ?
...in the gap right between the train and the platform !

the mind is in awareness

since when this happens to me , I can neither , control the body reaction and nor do I have the ability to make sense of it , I can't think

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@north,

...have you tried it already ? that explains allot... Wink

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...have you tried it already ? that explains allot...

yes , I simply cannot make sense of what is happening , I can't analyse ( yes I saw the wink ) but seriously this does happen

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@north,

...I was just kidding North, no worries, we all sometimes cannot think properly, be it because we are tired, because we lost track on the variables, or because we did n´t prepared well enough...its called background "noise" or entropy at work...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...I was just kidding North, no worries, we all sometimes cannot think properly, be it because we are tired, because we lost track on the variables, or because we did n´t prepared well enough...its called background "noise" or entropy at work...

I know you were joking Fil and no worries

I just find my experience well..... bizarre thats all

I'm there but can do nothing about whats going on

it only lasts a few seconds , 10 to 20 at the most

and if I repeat this , it lasts either not at all , or very little

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@Fido,

Quote:

You are saying you understand what is going on and it is confusion, or madness or anarchy

No. That is how you understand my words.

Quote:

The problem lies in the fact that our meanings, our forms, physical and moral forms are all considered as absolutes

That is by no means a fact. At best, it is a popular "philosophical" belief. These absolutes, or moral forms, are assumptions, just like god is an assumption of the religious. All their effort goes into devising ideas and philosophies that support and validate their initial assumption, which seems to be the case with you and your absolutes.

So, I guess that's where we stand now; I think it's only proper that you try to validate your assumption about moral forms. To me, they seem like redundant ideals that serve no purpose but to substantiate a philosophy that would fall apart without them.

I repeat what I already said; we will never find a solid or absolute foundation of understanding that we can point to as being the context in which meaning emerges, because it's always another relationship between different aspects of perception.

All your attempts to "describe it in detail" are merely examples of this, and if you take any one of your examples and follow it as far as you manage, I am pretty sure that you will find that at the bottom of one relationship there is always a foundation, or context, that is made up of another relationship. No absolutes, no moral forms or pure meanings that don't relate to anything. Consider that a challenge!

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

...multi purpose and versatility won´t take the operation of a true specific function of relation which is at work Cyr...because something that justify´s something else, needs itself justification, its operating value in that layer of context is not false...the fact is, either it functions or it don´t, think upon that !

And how does that contradict anything I've said??

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

...and yet they operate, when they work, they do work...could it be magic ? who knows...(dramatic pause)

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@Cyracuz,

...you seem to continuously, not understand or conveniently forget, when you say that something is not true or it has no foundation, it should not work at all...you need a mechanism for something to work, either that or magic...you cannot warp your way around that Cyr...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

you cannot warp your way around that Cyr

You're the one warping....

You are not even responding to what I'm saying. I think you should take a bit more time reading posts before you reply to them. I haven't said that "something is not true or it has no foundation".
I haven't said that you don't need "a mechanism for something to work".
You don't seem to be getting it at all....

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

...is it ?
...so you think meaning has no justification, no foundation in the relation between the subject and the object, but that in turn is a mere arbitrary construction in the mind of the subject product of its own volition...earlier you went as far as to say the subject creates the world such that meaning ends up as a construction upon a construction of the mind, and so on, and then come around to state that you haven´t said that ? Where do functions start and end ? what kind of relation is there between the subject as a mind, and mind itself without an actual world in place other then itself ? what kind of circular argument is that for foundation ? again even concerning meaning you are the one who often states meaning has no actual true relation with things, and is an arbitrary construct...give me a brake, and track your own talks better...

...you see you need a bearer of "existence" which is a bearer of truth as functional fact...you need parts to have wholes...you need mechanics...and in there you need to establish valid correlations...if you cut them loose you get without nothing...nor mind nor subject nor world...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

...you see you need a bearer of "existence" which is a bearer of truth as functional fact

O really? And what do you propose that is then? What's this "bearer of existence"?
Seems to me you are preaching religious bs while trying to convince yourself that it is anything but..

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

...the bearer of existence is the bloody Cosmos ! ...what the **** are you talking about ? BEARER OF EXISTENCE MEANS FOUNDATION !
you are being deliberately surreptitious to dodge a bullet Cyr play honestly please...

1 Reply

Missing in action: Where is the mind?

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