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This is why it's not nice to the community to use tags as graffiti

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 01:41 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
As with all other functions of A2K, I use the tagging system primarily and exclusively for my personal enjoyment. The promotion of humorous tags makes the site a better place, not a worse one.


Have fun then. If possible try to have fun in ways that negatively impact others less. For example, even if you want to use humorous "graffiti" tags just varying them can help. Using one over and over makes it more prominent than it deserves to be.

Think of it like jokes, telling the community the same joke too many times doesn't make it a better place.


I usually do vary it up - the humor has to be specific to the author or the thread topic or it's not relevant.

Are you against tags that are author-specific, such as Crazyassgunga, one of my faves?

Cycloptichorn
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 01:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Are you against tags that are author-specific, such as Crazyassgunga, one of my faves?


Ideally, tags would describe the topic of the thread. So that isn't very helpful to me, but like I said I expect such things and only with volume do they become annoying.

For example, h2oman tags (which I believe he's doing himself) on the water softening threads made that a prominent forum that is highly related to the water softening tag. It is less useful to be user-specific than topic specific. Despite his prevalence in the water softening topics the site doesn't need an h2oman forum as much as better water softening tags.

So in your example, if you do that for every science thread he makes you may make that a highly related tag for science, thereby driving more traffic to those threads.

Right not the international snooze tag is gone, much thanks to the member who removed them all, but on the new posts page, the home page, and on many other pages you'll notice "hit and run" is still related to the "international news" tag. On a smaller scale that happens on individual tag pages that display a long list of related tags. I looked up your example and it's not prominent yet, but if we don't tweak the algo to reflect unique user usage and it continues then it might start showing up as a related tag to science or something.
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:00 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Who's we? This is being done by a couple of people. But yes, the users "adapted" but will continue to adapt. You might be beyond convincing but others might not be and I already outlined two things we can do about it.

I only tag threads which I want to see when I do searches of My Tags. However, seeing "Do my Homework" as a tag already does help me to quickly "thumb down" the topic (I avoid having to read it first).
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:03 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Er...

You want our input but, but you want to control our input? I suppose you can create a list of pre-approved tag titles.

Robert Gentel wrote:
Useful for what? In order to identify topics of little value? Because voting them down would also do that

Yes, that is a useful function. With the elimination of negative popularity numbers, we only see a zero until a thread reaches some critical mass of negative votes. It only takes one person to tag something "hit and run", so that I know not to open it.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:06 pm
@DrewDad,
In a way, the graffiti tagging is an unintended consequence of not displaying the real popularity of a thread.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:13 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
you'll notice "hit and run" is still related to the "international news" tag.

I fail to see the problem. Someone found "hit and run" meaningful, even if you don't, and even if "hit and run" is not really related to "international news".

This is a correlational problem, not a problem with how people are using the tags. Your algorithm threw an artifact and as a result, you're trying to change human behavior. IMO, it's like trying to hold the tide back with a spoon.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:14 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I suppose this all raises a question: do we really expect people to tag in the community's interest, instead of their own?

Cycloptichorn
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:45 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
You want our input but, but you want to control our input? I suppose you can create a list of pre-approved tag titles.


Where did I say anything about trying to control your tags? And if I wanted them pre-approved then I'd have stuck with pre-approved forums.

I am appealing to an ideal, your notion that I'm trying to dictate the tags is nonsense.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I suppose this all raises a question: do we really expect people to tag in the community's interest, instead of their own?


I expect some to and some not to, I don't really expect you to but others have different motivations, maybe an osso would. I also expect this ratio to be able to be influenced to some degree by making appeals, which is why I make them.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:51 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
In a way, the graffiti tagging is an unintended consequence of not displaying the real popularity of a thread.


I disagree, but that is eventually changing anyway. The threads will be ranked by a "Bayesian rating" and will be displayed as-is.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:55 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Where did I say anything about trying to control your tags?

The whole basis of the thread is to tell folks that you disapprove of how people are tagging.

Robert Gentel wrote:
if I wanted them pre-approved then I'd have stuck with pre-approved forums.

That was my point.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:58 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
I fail to see the problem. Someone found "hit and run" meaningful, even if you don't, and even if "hit and run" is not really related to "international news".


The problem in the code is that I failed to rate the relations by unique users, so if one person is merely obsessed with a tag they can be overrepresented in the community.

The problem for the community is that this attracts more of that content, and makes it more prominent. The community sees more of it because of the few users who find it fun.

Quote:
This is a correlational problem, not a problem with how people are using the tags. Your algorithm threw an artifact and as a result, you're trying to change human behavior. IMO, it's like trying to hold the tide back with a spoon.


If your point is that the code needs to change and that any other solution is less-than-ideal I wholeheartedly agree.

But the appeals work. Last night it was on the home page and on every main grid (popular topics, new topics, new posts etc) and today it is not. No code changed, what happened is that this appeal was made and the user who used those tags noticed what the result was and removed them all (many thanks!).

So the "spoon" really does work here, and the more aware the community is about how it works (which is one thing that the tag feature is deficient in) the better it becomes. I certainly need to fix the algorithm to better harvest wisdom from crowd data but that doesn't mean the crowd isn't capable of evolution. This topic worked a lot faster than it would take to recreate all the data with different aggregates and rewrite the code. We'll get around to that when we can but appealing to the community is also a useful tool.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 02:59 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
The whole basis of the thread is to tell folks that you disapprove of how people are tagging.


Telling someone you disapprove is hardly trying to dictate and control their tags. You are telling me that you disapprove of my thread aren't you?

Quote:
That was my point.


Then it makes precious little sense. I clearly don't want to dictate what the tags are, I want the community to be able to evolve the topics it covers on its own, but that doesn't mean I will refrain from making suggestions.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 03:04 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I suppose this all raises a question: do we really expect people to tag in the community's interest, instead of their own?


I expect some to and some not to, I don't really expect you to but others have different motivations, maybe an osso would. I also expect this ratio to be able to be influenced to some degree by making appeals, which is why I make them.


As the appeals are likely to reach a very limited number of users, perhaps a change to the code instead, as you mentioned earlier?

Or public vs. private tags? I'd be more inclined to tag topics with useful tags if this distinction existed.

Cycloptichorn
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 03:13 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Or public vs. private tags? I'd be more inclined to tag topics with useful tags if this distinction existed.


definitely something I'd like to see.

0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 03:14 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
As the appeals are likely to reach a very limited number of users, perhaps a change to the code instead, as you mentioned earlier?


We definitely have to do that as well, but it's a week or two of our time that we will have to spend when we can.

Quote:
Or public vs. private tags? I'd be more inclined to tag topics with useful tags if this distinction existed.


How so? I've thought about private tags before, but am not getting the connection to this kind of thing (which I think has the intention of being public), so what did you have in mind?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 03:17 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
As the appeals are likely to reach a very limited number of users, perhaps a change to the code instead, as you mentioned earlier?


We definitely have to do that as well, but it's a week or two of our time that we will have to spend when we can.

Quote:
Or public vs. private tags? I'd be more inclined to tag topics with useful tags if this distinction existed.


How so? I've thought about private tags before, but am not getting the connection to this kind of thing (which I think has the intention of being public), so what did you have in mind?


My tags have great personal usefulness to me, but limited usefulness to others in many cases, because others don't know what I mean when I say things. I have to either choose between having a unique and self-useful tagging system, or a common and helpful one (which I likely will enjoy less). This means you will likely see more and more crazy and funny tags outta me and others who like to do more than just slap 'politics' and other boring tags on things; but if those were private, I could do it without screwing up your front page.

Just a thought

Cycloptichorn
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 03:22 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
I hate to say it, but I find the "graffiti" tags useful. Things like "international snooze", "hit and run" and "do my homework", are usually pretty accurate tags.


Useful for what? In order to identify topics of little value? Because voting them down would also do that


there are threads I don't want to have disappear, so I don't want to thumb them down - but I do want a sort of warning to myself that I may run into something/someone I'm not in the mood for.

" ignore h20man" sometimes works that way for me. Some days I don't want to bother seeing anything he posts, so tagging a thread he's been active in reminds me to keep away.

The thread itself may be excellent, there may be days I don't care if I see him or not - but I've got an early warning system set up using the tags.

Not your intent - but it's quite effective.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 03:23 pm
Also, I wish tagging a thread didn't put it on your 'my posts' list.

Cycloptichorn
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 03:23 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

jespah wrote:
Writing about President Obama? Then tags like Politics, United States, Presidency, President Obama could all be good.


this one in particular is an arrrrrgh for me. Using "politics" to mark something that's about the current state of U.S. politics. U.S. politics - probably in my top ten tags - most days for "stay away" purposes.



Cool. I'd have thought US Politics a very useful tag?

But I don't really get the agita.

Even US politics belongs to the meta subject of Politics, no? Wink

I'd likely (if thinking straight, and trying to get the tags in descending order of specificity) use Politics for the politics of any country, followed by the specific country + politics, followed by something specific to the topic.
 

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