15
   

3 Sex offenders at the same address ???

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 04:36 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Fetishes are not interchangeable.

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.


With good reason.

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 05:16 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
Certainly lots of them go the way of increasingly boundary crossing porn (eg violent or child porn) as they work their fantasies up until they do it to real humans.


so long as they are told that their sexuality is unhealthy, and to practice it with another person would be abuse even if the other person says words to the effect that they consent, these guys are relegated to self sex. So in the current situation then yes, fantasy and porn will lead to problems, because at the end of the day they are not allowed the sexuality that they need. Think of it as a heroin addict who could use methadone which would be a step down from the addiction, but they are told that if they use methadone then they are as in violation of the collective as if they use heroin. If the penalty is the same they may as well go for the heroin, the chances of getting caught and thus into trouble are exactly them same, logic suggest that you may as well go for the good stuff.

If we allowed kink, promoted safer kink, we would be much better off. As it is we decide that they have unhealthy sexuality, so the goal is to deaden sexuality. It does not take a MENSA member to understand why the results are not that great.
aidan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 11:31 pm
@dyslexia,
Quote:
In the state I worked for "the list" included everyone who had ever been accused/investigated for any child abuse/neglect whether arrested or convicted or even charged.

this sounds like a different 'list'. Maybe one that is available to child protective service workers so that they can check to see whether a person has seemed to have been in a similar situation before. I know that when I talked to a child protection worker once about how it is decided whether or not to proceed with an investigation of a 'tip' or complaint against someone, he told me that in almost all cases there have to be at least two incidences or complaints - by two separate people.
Of course, he may have been (and probably was) working in a different state than you were. This was in Maine, but that situation sounds as if it would call for such a list such as the one you're speaking of.
Quote:
While this "list" was not specifically public it was easily accessed by almost anyone.

Where and how? My sister, who is a school social worker in Michigan, and is responsible for working with the at-risk children in her school has told me that one of her biggest frustrations and hurdles to overcome is that when a new child moves into her district - unless there is some sort of public record - that child comes with almost no context- except the report (if there is one) from the last school.
Like I said, this sounds like a different list than the one Linkat is speaking of.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 11:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
If we allowed kink, promoted safer kink, we would be much better off.


Just about anything other than child porn is legal. So what exactly (if anything) are you arguing that should be allowed?
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:14 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Yeah - there are some horror stories about what can happen to people who get 'outed' but on the other hand, I have to say, that I'm like Linkat.


The horror stories from being outed and murdered aren't even the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of people on the list for stupid things like indecent exposure (mooning, urinating in public) or sex with prostitutes who just don't merit the blemish on their record for such offenses and there are stupid clauses that can do things like send a homeless individual on the list to jail for life for failing to register an address.

It's fraught with problems, and studies have shown that it does not contribute to making society safer from sex crimes. See:

Does a watched pot boil? A time-series analysis of New York State's sex offender registration and notification law.
Sandler, Jeffrey C.; Freeman, Naomi J.; Socia, Kelly M.
Psychology, Public Policy, and Law. Vol 14(4), Nov 2008, 284-302.


Quote:
If there's a sex offender in my neighborhood - I'd like to be informed before the fact and not after some horrible, tragic event has taken place- because all the parents thought their neighborhood was as safe as it's always been.


Why? What would you do with the knowledge that isn't already common sense to do if you have a kid?

If you are screening a babysitter, or a teacher it might make sense, but as it stands I think it endangers the community more than it helps. If the individuals on the list are gainfully employed, as opposed to always being between jobs and with little to lose, there is less chance of recidivism.

Right now there are so many people on the list that don't pose a threat to society that it makes it harder to track the ones who do, and there's no evidence that getting the public involved helps any. And consequently there is no demonstrable benefit of these policies. It's not helping at all.

I'd rather see a smaller list of more dangerous individuals that is available only to police and as a background check for working with children, and more resources dedicated towards preventing recidivism instead of feeding the nation's obsession with all that is salacious.

And as an aside, I think it's very odd that American society is more interested in the sex offenders than the murderers that are released. It's not surprising, especially since seeing Janet Jackson's breast causes more of an uproar than the violence and murder on TV every day, but it's a weird set of priorities.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:25 am
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:
Also as I read a bit more of the facility it isn't supposed to be "a holding facility". It is one those places where you line up each day for a half hour to get in. So it isn't in a sense a "real address" of where they live.


A homeless man was sent to prison for life for not registering (for lack of an address) and it's possible that they use the homeless shelter as an address to avoid a similar fate.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:32 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

If there's a sex offender in my neighborhood - I'd like to be informed before the fact and not after some horrible, tragic event has taken place- because all the parents thought their neighborhood was as safe as it's always been.
Does this reasoning lead us a fortiori to inform the neighbors of murderers,
attempted murderers, robbers, burglars, blackmailers, car thieves, pickpockets, etc ?





David
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:33 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Go peddle your poutrage somewhere else.
This was very clever. Laughing
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 01:00 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

aidan wrote:

If there's a sex offender in my neighborhood - I'd like to be informed before the fact and not after some horrible, tragic event has taken place- because all the parents thought their neighborhood was as safe as it's always been.
Does this reasoning lead us a fortiori to inform the neighbors of murderers,
attempted murderers, robbers, burglars, blackmailers, car thieves, pickpockets, etc ?
Many states already have public access to all court activity. Here in Wisconsin, sex offenders’ pictures are shown with their address.

Robert: I for one think it's a perfectly sound idea to provide parents the knowledge if a child molester resides between yours and your child's friend's home down the block. This may very well influence whether or not you let your child visit on his own. This knowledge is a game changer that may very well convince you to keep your child out of harm’s way, when otherwise worrying about junior’s ability to walk a block would be seriously overprotective. I would certainly want to know if that friendly old man that’s always kind to my children was in fact a convicted child molester, rather than just a friendly, lonely old man who happens to like children. You wouldn’t? Really?

The day will never come when I think the peace and comfort of an ex-child molester (if indeed there is such an animal) trumps the safety and sanctity of their next potential victim. Now that you mention it; it does seem a little silly that released killers aren’t automatically included as well… but that’s no argument against making the public aware.
aidan
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 01:04 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Does this reasoning lead us a fortiori to inform the neighbors of murderers,
attempted murderers, robbers, burglars, blackmailers, car thieves, pickpockets, et

I don't know what a 'fortiori' is - but I'll look that up and that'll be my new word for the day - but I think I can ascertain what you mean- and my answer to that is to ask - 'Is there any legislation that confers upon me the right to know that my neighbor has committed such crimes?'
If there is - yes, I'd take advantage of it. For instance - I don't lock my doors during the day right now. But if I knew that there is a CONVICTED murderer living two houses down - I'd start being more careful about locking my doors.
Unfortunately - I don't think there's any law regarding that is there? So all we can go on in terms of those offenses is rumor and innuendo.

It all goes back to the thought behind the thread you started about having the means to protect oneself.
And me, I'd rather have accurate information as a means with which to protect and defend myself and my children against imminent dangers in my surroundings than a gun.

I don't think it's really so odd David. And I think most people who have children understand the emotion behind it.
It's like when I lived across the street from a park with a river running through it. That fact informed what I allowed my children to do and where I allowed them to go without me in attendance.
If there's a sexual predator of children or a murderer in the neighborhood - that fact will or should inform a parent's decision making processes in terms of where they allow their child to go and do without them.
Do you understand how this information can be helpful in parents being able to keep their children safer from molestation?
It doesn't mean that anyone wants or enjoys seeing any innocent person smeared or scarred for life by it unnecessarily and unfairly.
aidan
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 01:38 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Why? What would you do with the knowledge that isn't already common sense to do if you have a kid?

Well, right now I allow my daughter to walk unaccompanied to her friend's house. If I KNEW that there was a registered sex offender living in a house between here and her friend's house - I'd walk with her or drive her.
Accurate information would change my thinking as to whatdoes and does not constitute common sense in this specific situation - as it does in any situation.

What is real in any situation - changes what one does in that situation. Just like if she had to cross four lanes of traffic to get to her friend's house, I'd be more likely to accompany her than if she had to walk three blocks on a sidewalk through a suburban neighborhood to get to a friend's house.

Obviously, the initial idea and intent has been twisted to such an extent that innocent people are being harmed by it. Am I happy about that? No. Do I wish it could be used and applied more fairly without hurting innocent people? Yes. But do think the initial idea and intent were based on a viable concept of child safety that I would appreciate having in place if I lived in a neighborhood with a sexual predator? Yes.

Quote:
And as an aside, I think it's very odd that American society is more interested in the sex offenders than the murderers that are released. It's not surprising, especially since seeing Janet Jackson's breast causes more of an uproar than the violence and murder on TV every day, but it's a weird set of priorities.

Well, all I can go on is what I read about how horribly people who have been sexually abused have suffered - many times on this forum. I'm sure that that has informed my view that it's something I'd like to protect my children and other children from at any cost.
There was just a thread active here last week in which people decried NOT taking sexual abuse of children more seriously.

My own thought is that I would like to know if I'm living next door to a murderer as well. I do like to know the lay of the land and adjust my practices accordingly to keep my family safe. But I will say, that I think MOST habitual sexual offenders of children have a different psychological make-up and bent toward recidivism of that specific crime than do MOST murderers- unless those murderers are serial killers.
Many murders are situational and not habitual behavior that is likely to be life-long practice. Many molestations are patterned and ingrained habitual behavior.
aidan
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 02:07 am
@aidan,
Quote:
Robert said:

Quote:
If you are screening a babysitter, or a teacher it might make sense, but as it stands I think it endangers the community more than it helps. If the individuals on the list are gainfully employed, as opposed to always being between jobs and with little to lose, there is less chance of recidivism.

Right now there are so many people on the list that don't pose a threat to society that it makes it harder to track the ones who do, and there's no evidence that getting the public involved helps any. And consequently there is no demonstrable benefit of these policies. It's not helping at all.

I'd rather see a smaller list of more dangerous individuals that is available only to police and as a background check for working with children, and more resources dedicated towards preventing recidivism instead of feeding the nation's obsession with all that is salacious.

I think this is a viable concern and a good topic for another thread - as in 'What purpose has the sexual offenders registry come to serve- who uses it and why and what that says about the people in our society.'

But as Linkat broached this topic - I have to say that I understand her concern and also question the reasoning of those who would house KNOWN and admitted sexual offenders within close proximity of a library and a Y that children walk to and attend, often unaccompanied by adults.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 10:25 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Robert: I for one think it's a perfectly sound idea to provide parents the knowledge if a child molester resides between yours and your child's friend's home down the block. This may very well influence whether or not you let your child visit on his own. This knowledge is a game changer that may very well convince you to keep your child out of harm’s way, when otherwise worrying about junior’s ability to walk a block would be seriously overprotective. I would certainly want to know if that friendly old man that’s always kind to my children was in fact a convicted child molester, rather than just a friendly, lonely old man who happens to like children. You wouldn’t? Really?


Well all that speculation aside, there is no evidence at all that it actually does help. It has been studied and shown to have no demonstrable effect.

Quote:
The day will never come when I think the peace and comfort of an ex-child molester (if indeed there is such an animal) trumps the safety and sanctity of their next potential victim.


The overwhelming majority of the people on the list just aren't child molesters Bill.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 10:30 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Well, right now I allow my daughter to walk unaccompanied to her friend's house. If I KNEW that there was a registered sex offender living in a house between here and her friend's house - I'd walk with her or drive her.
Accurate information would change my thinking as to whatdoes and does not constitute common sense in this specific situation - as it does in any situation.


Why do you think there's no demonstrable change with these notifications then when this is studied? Just about every parent uses this kind of reaoning, but why is it that it just isn't supported by evidence?


Quote:
But I will say, that I think MOST habitual sexual offenders of children have a different psychological make-up and bent toward recidivism of that specific crime than do MOST murderers- unless those murderers are serial killers.


But we aren't talking about a child rapist list. We are talking about a sex offender list. The list was never ever the kind of list you seem to think it is. In much of America it means that any crime that remotely involves sex (including mere public nudity) gets you on the list.

I'd much rather see harsher sentencing for those who are legitimate risks than this arbitrary and useless list.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 10:34 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
I think this is a viable concern and a good topic for another thread - as in 'What purpose has the sexual offenders registry come to serve- who uses it and why and what that says about the people in our society.'


This thread is a perfectly good thread for discussion about the sex offender list. It is exactly the misplaced concerns here that I am addressing.

The worry about why a homeless shelter would house homeless people on the sex offender registry illustrates exactly what I am talking about. The next step is to harass or pressure the homeless shelter for it.

The effect is almost inevitably to run them out. This doesn't make people safer, it makes the lives of these individuals more precarious and their rehabilitation that much harder.

Quote:
But as Linkat broached this topic - I have to say that I understand her concern and also question the reasoning of those who would house KNOWN and admitted sexual offenders within close proximity of a library and a Y that children walk to and attend, often unaccompanied by adults.


I understand the concern, it's a fairly normal emotion to have, but it's not a very informed or rational one. All this concern hasn't demonstrably made anyone safer and it has demonstrably caused harm.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 11:19 am
@dyslexia,
"The list" details what the individual was convicted of - so you can see if the individual was convicted of something mild like peeing in public to something horrific like repeated rape against a child under the age or 14. I think that is an important distinction.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 11:20 am
@aidan,
I agree - this list is only supposed to be for those convicted of a sexual crime.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 11:25 am
@Robert Gentel,
I wonder if anyone reads my comments - like I said this "list" states what the individual was convicted of - yes I fully understand and know that those needing to register as a sexual offender could have simply being peeing in public - I think I said this at least 3 times. However, the list states what the conviction or convictions were for. And how many times an individual has been convicted.

The three I pointed out were Level 3 (which is never just exposing oneself) - it is reserved for the most violent offenses. Of which 2 were repeat offenses. Now how the heck does one end up out of jail after repeated sexual offenses to children under 14? One of these as a matter of fact, broke into a women's apartment this past spring and is out on bail.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 11:25 am
@Robert Gentel,
I've shown my children these individuals pictures that is how. So if they see them around, they now to come in or see a trusted adult.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Mon 28 Sep, 2009 11:27 am
@Robert Gentel,
My point being, they shouldn't be able to use a homeless facilities address.
 

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