15
   

3 Sex offenders at the same address ???

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 10:47 am
@dlowan,
Quote:
Or...is this just child porn repeat


Child porn? Are you referring to my argument that the age of consent is too high, that it should be lower and that people meeting the new more reasonable AOC should be allowed to do with their bodies as they wish...to include sell it??

Child porn is not the point, allowing humans control of their sexuality at a reasonable time is.

We never got too far into that debate, certainly not far enough to declare a winner.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 10:50 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Fetishes are not interchangeable.

WTF does that mean? That you insist that you must be allowed to pass your moral judgment on other peoples sexuality?
DrewDad
 
  3  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 11:37 am
@hawkeye10,
It means that if someone's sexuality is focused on children, you can't just switch 'em over to some other fixation, like BDSM.

You sound like a fool when you suggest that people can just redirect their sexuality into another "kink".

And when did I pass moral judgment on anyone? Go peddle your poutrage somewhere else.
aidan
 
  2  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 11:45 am
@dlowan,
Quote:
Actually, adolescent sex offender programs have quite a reasonable success rate.

I can't quote the stats because they were given at a recent presentation, and I didn't get the reference paper.

So it sounds as if its relatively new information. If you can or do get the stats and citation, I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 12:03 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
Oh do define exactly what you mean by "otherwise deviant sexuality."

And please, in exactitude, define what "the collective" does not allow that you recommend.


I'd like to know as well. In all likelihood there's nothing of real substance there.

Edit: now that I've seen the response that is confirmed. Porn and BDSM? That's pretty silly.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 12:09 pm
Threads like this are a good example of what is wrong with sex offender registries. It's currently available for any layman to peruse for mere curiosity. It simply should not be available for any curious person to look at. It should be available to police and to people who are going to directly hire the individual to take care of kids.

It would make much more sense as a special background check for employment (with a small fee to prevent fishing) than what it is now, which is ultimately a way to keep these people from successfully rehabilitating their lives.

Right now, when businesses hire these folk, others who are obsessed with the list find out and threaten to run them out of business, and things like that only make it harder for them to rehabilitate themselves in society.

I'd like to see the list used more judiciously, both in terms of who gets on the list and who has access to it.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 12:17 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Good point.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 01:33 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Another point qua the merit of the lists is:
some of the people on it probably are innocent.
We know that from the fact that some of them
were subsequently exonerated.

There were some adults on TV (brothers) who lamented that
as very young children social workers and police detectives
suborned them, browbeat them, into perjury of sexual depravities
against their parents who continue languishing in prison
for crimes that never existed, except in the minds of social workers and police.

The boy whose allegations in the 1990s that Michael Jackson
had molested him and got a $20,000,000 settlement
felt so guilty that he recently admitted it was a hoax
designed by his father to raise them out of poverty. It worked.

On Dateline or a show like it, thay tracked back in time a very large
scandal in the national press of debauchery in a day care center,
thay tracked that back to a woman who had been offended
by the woman who later became a criminal defendant,
who granted a discount to another woman for daycare
that was not fully used and she unsuccessfully demanded
the same discount
. Vindictive rumors followed, with many people
people being convicted of major felonies on later disproven testimony.

If someone is confronted by police or FBI with allegations of many
counts of felonies, police or FBI very ofen offer to plea bargain
so that no trial is necessary, in the face of a gulity plea.
The prisoner is threatened with life in prison or a sentence of 100s of years,
so, in terror, he pleads guilty to a lesser offense and he ends up on the list.

That coud happen to anyone who is not immune to someone else
getting mad at him or her.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 01:56 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
One question about juveniles with sex offenses that remains unanswered is what kind of treatment works best. New studies are, however, beginning to suggest potential directions. One of the most promising is what’s known as multisystemic therapy, which tries to minimize antisocial behavior by helping caregivers more effectively supervise their children. Multisystemic therapy typically focuses on improving parent-child bonds and encouraging teenagers’ involvement in class work and after-school activities, as well as healthy friendships. Two small, controlled studies with juveniles who committed sex offenses suggest MST reduces recidivism more effectively than individual psychotherapy and some other treatments. In a third, a federally financed clinical trial led by Elizabeth Letourneau, researchers are looking at 127 juveniles adjudicated for sex offenses, between ages 11 and 18, and their families. About half of the kids were randomly assigned to multisystemic therapy and half to a traditional sex-offender treatment program that focuses on, among other things, relapse prevention. Both programs are outpatient. (No published study, Letourneau notes, has ever shown that residential programs " which she and other critics contend are overused " are more effective than less costly outpatient programs.) According to Letourneau, early results from the MST study are promising.

And last year, Mark Chaffin, at the University of Oklahoma, and other researchers published the results of a longitudinal study of 135 children ages 5 to 12 who had sexual-behavior problems and participated in a therapy program. The program took just 12 weeks, during which counselors addressed inappropriate sexual behavior, concrete sexual-behavior rules, self-control techniques and sex education. Given that the children were under 13, it’s hard to know if the results can be replicated with older adolescents, though Chaffin has just such a study under way. But in the study of younger children, the 10-year recidivism rate was 2 percent. “You can’t get a whole lot lower than that,” Chaffin said. “That’s a functional definition of a cure.”


That was a really interesting article JPB. The interesting thing is that what they're advocating as therapeutic method - multisystemic therapy (for children - the whole point of the article is that the treatment has to be different from children who sexually abuse other children than for adults who do that) sounds an awful lot like a wholesome, well-balanced life- that distracts or takes the focus off of the sexual abuse.

I've read varying figures in terms of what percentages of abusers were actually abused as children - most say that it can't be accurately calculated because of the issue of false self-reporting - so much abuse is never disclosed- but I did find one number and that put the figure at 57%- 57% of men that are known abusers reported that they themselves were abused as children.

So that makes me wonder at what the difference is between the people who were abused as children who grow up to abuse and the people who were abused as children who do NOT grow up to abuse.

In the article that JPB posted they were differentiating between children who were simply experimenting and children who seemed to be reenacting their own abuse on other children. And that made me wonder what the impetus behind reenacting their own abuse actually is.
What I mean is - if one person is abused and it's so horrible for him or her that s/he would never want to subject someone else to that - what is it in another person that then WOULD or DOES want to subject someone else to it?

Interesting to think about.
aidan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 02:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
For instance your people would take an offender and teach them how they might use porn and BDSM to satisfy their needs,


Actually, the article that JPB posted the link to states that porn can be a trigger to engaging in what amounts to addictive behavior for people with this problem:
Quote:
As part of their treatment, the boys had to keep journals " which Longo read " in which they detailed their sexual fantasies and logged how frequently they masturbated to those fantasies. They created “relapse-prevention plans,” based on the idea that sex-offending is like an addiction and that teenagers need to be watchful of any “triggers” (pornography, anger) that might initiate their “cycle” of reoffending.
aidan
 
  2  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 02:11 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
I'd like to see the list used more judiciously, both in terms of who gets on the list and who has access to it.

Yeah - there are some horror stories about what can happen to people who get 'outed' but on the other hand, I have to say, that I'm like Linkat. If there's a sex offender in my neighborhood - I'd like to be informed before the fact and not after some horrible, tragic event has taken place- because all the parents thought their neighborhood was as safe as it's always been.

When my son was five - my husband was his cubscout leader and there were like six or seven little boys who came to meetings at my house. One mom gave me the heads up that one of the little boys in the troop had issues - I don't know why (the ins and outs of what had happened to him in his life) but anyway, the fact was that he had severely hurt another child in the bathroom at the school. I mean like sat on him and pounded his head on the tile floor.

I was happy to know this - not so I could say, 'That kid can't come to my house,' but so I could make sure my three year old daughter was never in a room alone with him. And if I'd been the mom of that kid, if I didn't want to 'out' my kid to everyone and I'd felt there were extenuating circumstances - I'd have volunteered to be the helping parent every week just so I could keep an eye on him and in essence protect HIM as well as all the other children from his inappropriate or violent urges.

One could look at this registry in this way- for people who are reasonable to know that someone has a problem, creates an environment in which it will be harder for them to give in to their urges than if their problem remains secret.

Because I think some of these people are doing this **** because it's a compulsive and compelling urge that they HATE to do, but don't know how to stop.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 02:55 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Actually, the article that JPB posted the link to states that porn can be a trigger to engaging in what amounts to addictive behavior for people with this problem:


it is the same argument as that violent video games CAUSE real life violence. I don't buy into that. In my opinion some people don't like porn and video games, think that they are unhealthy, and look for reasons to justify their dislike. I am open to being convinced that their is a solid link, but short of that I will go with my personal experience that porn and fantasy are outlets for sexual cravings. Furthermore, I will go with my person opinion that in most cases the less we repress ourselves the more healthy we are.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 03:03 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Yeah - there are some horror stories about what can happen to people who get 'outed' but on the other hand, I have to say, that I'm like Linkat. If there's a sex offender in my neighborhood - I'd like to be informed before the fact and not after some horrible, tragic event has taken place- because all the parents thought their neighborhood was as safe as it's always been


The correct thing could be to tell you that you are not entitled to the information that you want. I personally would like to know who falsely accused the young men in the Hofstra case of rape, put them through hell, but the collective wisdom is that the collective is better of if I don't get what I want.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/18/hofstra.case/index.html

The question about sex offender notification is how does it serve the collectives best interests? WHat can you do with that information to make the world a better place? Can you or will you make you and you loves ones safer with this information. Is its result your feeling undue and unhealthy fear, or undue and unhealthy security if no one in your area is on the list? It is a complicated calculus, and most countries dont reach the rusult that we do, massive and published sexual offender location databases.
aidan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 03:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The correct thing could be to tell you that you are not entitled to the information that you want.

But I am - the passage of Megan's law is concrete indication that the powers that be have decided that citizens are entitled to this information.

Has the woman or women (I don't know anything about the Hofstra case) who falsely accused the young men of rape been charged and convicted of anything? If they have, then certainly, their names will become public record- if they're adults and they are charged and convicted of defamation of character, etc.

We're talking about people who have been CONVICTED of what they've been accused of doing- most often habitually and repeatedly.

Yes - it is a horrible shame that some people (especially young people) who innocently and naively experiment are tarred with the same brush and treated with the same disgust and disdain as grown adults who use and abuse children. That's wrong. That should be changed.

But I do not think it is bad for parents to be aware that there is a KNOWN predator living in their neighborhood if that is indeed the case.

Quote:
The question about sex offender notification is how does it serve the collectives best interests? WHat can you do with that information to make the world a better place? Can you or will you make you and you loves ones safer with this information.

Yes, I think this information can help parents and others who care about children make an informed decision about what it is safe for them to do in that neighborhood instead of a blindly uninformed decision that might lead to a lifetime of grief or dysfunction for their child and family.

And that is in the collective's best interests. The more unabused and emotionally and physically intact children we can produce to make their way into adulthood - the stronger and more well functioning our collective society will be.

The purpose of the law is not to make the offender's life difficult. The purpose of the law is to keep children safe. Unfortunately - people react emotionally and viscerally to this sort of issue and a by product of this law is that sexual offenders experience difficulty.
But does that difficulty they experience negate the original purpose and intent of the law -which is to keep children safe?
Should it?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 04:02 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Threads like this are a good example of what is wrong with sex offender registries. It's currently available for any layman to peruse for mere curiosity. It simply should not be available for any curious person to look at. It should be available to police and to people who are going to directly hire the individual to take care of kids.

It would make much more sense as a special background check for employment (with a small fee to prevent fishing) than what it is now, which is ultimately a way to keep these people from successfully rehabilitating their lives.

Right now, when businesses hire these folk, others who are obsessed with the list find out and threaten to run them out of business, and things like that only make it harder for them to rehabilitate themselves in society.

I'd like to see the list used more judiciously, both in terms of who gets on the list and who has access to it.



Yep....the list is used pretty much as you recommend here....I think the US has gone way over the top on this.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 04:09 pm
@dlowan,
In the state I worked for "the list" included everyone who had ever been accused/investigated for any child abuse/neglect whether arrested or convicted or even charged. While this "list" was not specifically public it was easily accessed by almost anyone. In my capacity in child protection, I was very reluctant to name anyone being investigated because of this. Upon conviction, the name was automatically placed on the public list.
dlowan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 04:15 pm
@aidan,
The part that is missed out, at least in that excerpt, is the cognitive aspect of adolescent offender programs....the adolescent program in my state (which has a good success rate and has always involved family and other systems) also helps kids to examine where their beliefs that it is ok to impose their desires on others derive from.

There is also a strong focus on the adolescent accepting responsibility for their actions, and understanding the effect on the person/s targeted by them.

The other aspect is assisting the adolescent with the effects of the trauma they have frequently suffered.

Such kids have a strong chance of coming from homes with a high degree of dys-functionality, and have a whole bunch of other problems that come along with the offending, critically including poor boundaries and coercive parenting and parental relationships.


Ditto with the little kids......though some have just had bad luck via being exposed to porn, or being targeted by another kid, for example.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 04:19 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

In the state I worked for "the list" included everyone who had ever been accused/investigated for any child abuse/neglect whether arrested or convicted or even charged. While this "list" was not specifically public it was easily accessed by almost anyone. In my capacity in child protection, I was very reluctant to name anyone being investigated because of this. Upon conviction, the name was automatically placed on the public list.


Whoa!

If we named anyone being investigated to anyone outside those with a legal right to know and directly involved...eg police, welfare....we'd be dead meat.

Often other people KNOW, though, because the reports to welfare are made by them....eg teachers, child-care workers etc.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 04:26 pm
@aidan,
No, it's as old as the programs, I think.

Well, I guess that is not that old, at least here...mebbe twenty years.

I won't be getting you the stats, I just don't have time to contact the program here for that kind of info, nor they time to gather them.

You'd need to look at primary sources.

If I run across such stats in the course of what I am reading anyway, I will post them if I remember.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Sun 27 Sep, 2009 04:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:

Oh do define exactly what you mean by "otherwise deviant sexuality


that would be anything. For instance your people would take an offender and teach them how they might use porn and BDSM to satisfy their needs, and you would tell them that as long as they are getting their fix fed by consensual interactions with adults then they are model citizens and have nothing to worry about from the law or the public health system.



Oh good grief...why do I bother to ask.

Anyway, adult porn is perfectly legal, as is consensual adult bondage, so they have nothing to worry about from the law re that anyway.

Porn in a home, btw, is a risk factor re child sexual abuse.

People with porn are also more likely to have child porn.

I suspect porn is bad for sex offenders....though research on that is ongoing.

Certainly lots of them go the way of increasingly boundary crossing porn (eg violent or child porn) as they work their fantasies up until they do it to real humans.

 

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