Minuteman Leader murders 9 year old girl.

@Diest TKO,

Quote:

Your TKO you're young and you'll figure it out one day (presumably as you view things) rhetoric really screams of the welcoming invite that I belong at the table. You're full of it

I make judgments about you, and often don't agree with you. I do not however say that you don't belong at a2k, and that your posts are a waste of time/bandwidth/ or a negative input into a2k . If you can't tell the difference between what I do and what Rocky and Joe Nation amongst others do then I pity you.

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@hawkeye10,

hackey said:

"I bring myself to the table asshole, just as you do. I however have the civility to not tell others that they don't belong at the table and that they don't contribute to the conversation, which makes me a better man than you are."

you keep thinking that.

you are the most civil rapist wanna be I know, I'll grant you that...

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@Merry Andrew,

Merry Andrew wrote:

If you actually remember the 60s, you weren't there.

I wasn't there, I was somewhere else.

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@dlowan,

dlowan

Quote:

That, and economic downturns traditionally add to the loonies.

The Department Of Homeland Security issued a bulletin recently deb that predicted a rise in domestic terror brought on by the economic hard times, the election of a black president, the return of trained soldiers from Iraq and Afg. and the volatile struggle between pro-life and pro-choice groups. And finally, the perception that a liberal (sorta) president will move to restrict gun sales in the U.S.

"Anti-immigration: “Rightwing extremist groups’ frustration over a perceived lack of government action on illegal immigration has the potential to incite individuals or small groups toward violence. If such violence were to occur, it likely would be isolated, small-scale, and directed at specific immigration-related targets.”

Recruiting returning vets: “Rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat.”

Gun-related violence: “Heightened interest in legislation for tighter firearms...may be invigorating rightwing extremist activity, specifically the white supremacist and militia movements.”

The report is here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/14/homeland-security-report_n_186834.html

Unfortunately deb, the report is seen in some quarters as very partisan.The term "right wing" is used 50 times. I believe the conservative population is regarding this bulletin as a manifesto against the conservative wing. Sort of the opposite end of the spectrum from the 70's under Nixon when "left wing" militias were terrorizing the conservative population.
In all fairness, I believe the DHS should be applauded for predicting an upturn in domestic unrest, but then again, their figures show Americans are 7 times more likely to die from domestic terrorism than from foreign terrorists.

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@panzade,

Yep....the ant nest be all stirred up, and they are hyper-paranoid ants at the calmest of times.

Quote:

I believe the DHS should be applauded for predicting an upturn in domestic unrest, but then again, their figures show Americans are 7 times more likely to die from domestic terrorism than from foreign terrorists.

Be bloody interesting if we included domestic violence and child abuse deaths in that....plus other murder rates.

It's like how we focus on air crashes, and ignore the vastly greater death rate from driving to the airport.

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@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

Yep....the ant nest be all stirred up, and they are hyper-paranoid ants at the calmest of times.

Quote:
I believe the DHS should be applauded for predicting an upturn in domestic unrest, but then again, their figures show Americans are 7 times more likely to die from domestic terrorism than from foreign terrorists.

Be bloody interesting if we included domestic violence and child abuse deaths in that....plus other murder rates.

It's like how we focus on air crashes, and ignore the vastly greater death rate from driving to the airport.

But it's easier to demonize foreign people.

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@Diest TKO,

Well, yes.....but I think more is going on here.

We as an organism, I think, are pre-wired to detect differences from normal routine background stuff.

And to deny stuff we don't really want to know about.

Car crashes, ongoing murder, DV, child abuse, mad gun men and such are kind of business as usual in the US (and, minus so much of the mad gun men, and as many murders, ditto in most of the western world).

Political terrorism hitting the US and Oz etc (less so the UK because of the IRA) is different.

It isn't in large parts of the rest of the world, but it is for us.

And here, I think, the xenophobia comes in....it IS much easier to demonize people who look a bit different and such.

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It's very appealing to think that we are dealing with "odd-ducks" wackos, loners losers etc. be the murder of an abortion doc, a gun-assault on a holocaust museum, whatever. Maybe we are, on the other hand it's possible that the US is growing (like a fungus) 1000's of extremists with a hunger for violence so severe that they (collectively) will become unmanageable by conventional police techniques.

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@dyslexia,

Quote:

It's very appealing to think that we are dealing with "odd-ducks" wackos, loners losers etc. be the murder of an abortion doc, a gun-assault on a holocaust museum, whatever. Maybe we are, on the other hand it's possible that the US is growing (like a fungus) 1000's of extremists with a hunger for violence so severe that they (collectively) will become unmanageable by conventional police techniques

wouldn't you like to believe that it is a case of the fringes going bad.......we are as a collective stressed and fractured and less well than we have been in a long time. More and more individuals get pushed over the edge, but we are all weaker now.

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@dyslexia,

dys

Quote:

on the other hand it's possible that the US is growing (like a fungus) 1000's of extremists with a hunger for violence so severe that they (collectively) will become unmanageable by conventional police techniques.

oh the irony....my father's exact words when speaking of the Black Panthers and the SLA. in the 60's and 70's Very Happy

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@Diest TKO,

Quote:

Finn, the bottom line is that this IS happening. These people are extremist right-wingers.

The incidents obviously took place, and I won't disagree that the people who committed these crimes can be said to hold extreme right-wing notions. I will also acknowledge that it would be ridiculous to suggest that there can't be dangerous right-wing extremists.

I think, though, that panzade is close to the mark when he wrote:

Quote:

...the report is seen in some quarters as very partisan. The term "right wing" is used 50 times. I believe the conservative population is regarding this bulletin as a manifesto against the conservative wing. Sort of the opposite end of the spectrum from the 70's under Nixon when "left wing" militias were terrorizing the conservative population.

I also think that are a great many people who believe and are attempting to assert that these extreme incidents are a predictably logical consequence of conservative thought and speech. I don't think that this is the premise of the DHS report, but I can understand why some might.

I don't that it's important, other than in terms of legal consequences like sentencing, to label a specific crime an act of terrorism, but it's not all that clear that these three incidents were acts of terrorism, especially as relates to your definition.

We don't have all the facts available concerning these three incidents and some may never be known, but at this point it doesn't appear that Vonn Brunn's intention was to intimidate or coerce a specific group. He was an 88 year old lunatic who, I suspect, decided that his life should end not in bed but in a dramatic demonstration. Who knows what twisted thoughts coursed through his brain, but it's unlikely that his plan was to effect political decisions.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the incident that is the subject of this thread, but it's also not clear that the actions of the three assailants were intended to coerce anyone other than the three family members.

The murder of the abortion doctor, on the other hand may have been intended as a means to affect a political end not achievable through legal action, but it could also have simply been one madman's desire to perceive himself as an avenging agent of God.

I don't have a strong objection to labeling these events as examples of terrorism, but I do believe that the motivation to do so for some is being able to link the powerfully charged term "terrorism" with a viewpoint with which they disagree.

I offer no excuses or sympathy for the perpetrators of these crimes, but I still am wondering what those who insist on labeling them "domestic terrorists," and crimes a product of "right-wing extremism" propose be done in terms of a governmental response.

Very often the discussion of events like these lead to condemnation of conservative rhetoric and specifically conservative voices like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity etc. This is certainly the case for e brown and for Frank Rich, as well, in his piece in the Week in Review in today's NY Times.

And you as well, although your accusation is bit less obvious.

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They are emboldened to this action because they are fed propaganda that tells them they should take action, even if not specifically killing.

During the Bush presidency there were all sorts of extreme and hateful comments made about the president, with calling him a murderer among the least inflammatory.

Charlie Brooker in a column in the Guardian wrote:

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John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley, Jr. " where are you now that we need you?

Bill Moyer pronounced this:

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"I think this is deliberate, intentional destruction of the United States of America,"

And Senator Robert Byrd this

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"This republic is at its greatest danger in its history because of this administration."

If President Bush had been assassinated would you have found these liberal voices culpable?

Did you attend any of the Tea Parties? If not, how did you come to the conclusion that "lots of racist propaganda" was being promoted at them, or, for that matter, "government upheaval and revolt."

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In the meatime, the president's approval rating continues to fall. In Rasmussen Reports, Obama logs in 34% who strongly approve and 32% who strongly disapprove giving him a plus two. Shortly after his election, Obama had a plus 10. He is in free fall only five months after his inauguation.

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@panzade,

panzade wrote:

dys

Quote:
on the other hand it's possible that the US is growing (like a fungus) 1000's of extremists with a hunger for violence so severe that they (collectively) will become unmanageable by conventional police techniques.

oh the irony....my father's exact words when speaking of the Black Panthers and the SLA. in the 60's and 70's

I guess the extremists who hunger for violence are lucky for gun control,
so that as few of us as possible will be able to defend ourselves.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

I'm not saying that conservatives or Republicans are terrorists. Moreover, I think that this hurts them the most. I think that the response from government is too hard to define right now. I can't offer any sort of well thought out solution. I can only suggest that people can respond right now.

I guess my thoughts are that the conservative media culture and the liberal media culture both exhibit large biases, but it's not the bias that promotes this kind of thing but rather what comes after.

Romanticized notions of overthrowing our government are misplaced. In the Bush years, I saw plenty of people speak out against him, but overall I felt that the call was to civil service; get involved; write letters; go vote. What I'm witnessing post Obama election is lots of fires being fueled.

Who in the GOP is the voice for working with the democrats? Who in the conservative media? If they exist, where is their support? Who are their attackers?

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Shawna Forde: Anti-Immigrant leader, American Patriot, murderer.

Quote:
According to authorities, Bush, Forde, and Gaxiola broke into the home of the Flores family just after midnight on May 30th. At the time, the mother, father and daughter were home. The invaders reportedly shot the three members of the Flores family, killing the father, Raul, and the daughter, Brisenia. The invaders then left the scene.

http://www.kvoa.com/global/story.asp?s=10526106

With the Holocaust museum shooting, and the murder of Dr. Tiller, when are we going to take the threat of right-wing extremism seriously?

In 2007, she joined the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps. However, she was asked to leave the organization after members described her as being "unstable". Forde later founded her own version, the Minutemen American Defense organization.

The fact that a member of an immigration enforcement advocacy group is a murderer doesn't mean that everyone who favors enforcement of the immigration laws is a murderer.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I propose the rigorous enforcement of existing laws, including and with particular regard to punishing those found to be illegally employing people who have crossed the border. The government keeps the border patrol and the immigration and naturalization services on a short leash because the boys with cash for candidates don't want these laws enforced. The Reagan era Immigration Control and Reform Act has reasonable provisions which could be effective, if the border patrol and INS were properly funded, and a sincere effort were made to enforce the Act.

My feelings exactly.

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@Brandon9000,

Of course not. I think what's troubling is that this behavior was previously observed. I think it was posted somewhere that local law enforcement had some run-ins with her prior to this as well.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I propose the rigorous enforcement of existing laws, including and with particular regard to punishing those found to be illegally employing people who have crossed the border. The government keeps the border patrol and the immigration and naturalization services on a short leash because the boys with cash for candidates don't want these laws enforced.

I agree that those efforts are underfunded, but I disagree with the reason. There is only so much money to go around and there are lots of priorities for the US government. If you want to fight a war in Iraq and Afganistan or build roads or inspect for salmonella, you have less money available for border patrol. Until we are willing to pay for all the things we expect the government to do through taxes, we can expect it to underfund everything.

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@engineer,

but but but... taxes!

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@engineer,

One of the reasons there is only so much money to go around is because the last administration slashed taxes at a time when the people didn't seem to think that taxes were terribly high, and at a time when the government had been running surpluses rather than deficits. Then after September 11th, that administration not only fought a war in Afghanistan (hard to argue against that one), they saddled us with a war in Iraq, too, plus god knows how much contract cheating, beginning with but not limited to unbid contracts to Halliburton and Bechtel.

FEMA, which has spent most of its money in the last 20 years dealing with homelessness (FEMA disburses funds to house homeless families, it is their most consistent expenditure), was totally unprepared to deal with Katrina. Add to that the fact that the last administration cut funding to the Corps of Engineers--the Corps might not have been able to detect the flawed levies in New Orleans (and no legal action has been brought against the greedy sons of bitches who built that piece of ****), but that is nevertheless their mission. I happen to consider FEMA, the Corps of Engineers and INS to be higher priorities than the military fantasies of a bunch of Reagan era has-beens.

Telling me that there is only so much money to go around when the reasons there is only so much money to go around are piss poor reasons doesn't constitute much of an answer.

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Minuteman Leader murders 9 year old girl.

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