Minuteman Leader murders 9 year old girl.

In America, government was created
to defend us from the violation of our rights BY OTHERS.
It was NOT created to defend us from our own poor judgment.

Not exactly, government is supposed to do what it can to tech, to create good judgment. But criminalizing "bad" choices or even obviously self destructive behaviour? Just because it was always not allowed to take your own life (because it was an abomination before God) does not mean that government has the right to make me use a car seatbelt for instance , or to make me make my relationship with my wife conform to the approved "healthy" relationship as described in text books! The majority through Government makes this **** up as they go, to rationalize their steamrolling over individual choice. It has definitely gotten out of hand.

David wrote:
hawkeye10 wrote:

I 'm not clear qua what u r getting at, Hawkeye.
Government was not vested with any duty to teach anything.

I am under the impression that it was the CITIZENS that create government.
The damned thing is not supposed to reproduce itself.



R u English ?



and because it deprived the King of England of a potential soldier



These interferences can only be perpetrated
by USURPATIONS of powers, concerning which government
only borrows its authority from the schoolyard bullys of America.





David

Wrong. There was a home invasion. The people who lived there would be perfectly within their rights to defend themselves, yes?


Even if true, so what? That's a matter for police enforcement. Not (at best) vigilante attacks.

DrewDad wrote:

The existence of a home invasion
does not disprove a shootout.

I'm thinking 44 magnum, what's your thinking Dave?

I am not as big a fan of guns as David is...

But if you are Hispanic, Jewish or in the medical profession-- not being well armed these days (given the current risk of terrorism) is stupid.

dyslexia wrote:

.44 special with hollowpointed slugs; magnum is counterproductive
for anti-personnel purposes. The heavier charge will accelerate overpenetration,
minimizing energy dump in the target, especially with an FMJ round.

He may well perish from exsanguination (from the exit wound), but take u out first.

Still, I gotta admit that .44 magnum will produce a very respectable
hydrostatic shock with resultant cavitation; that can bring bad luck.

There 's a problem with magnum qua recovery time, Newton 's 3rd Law of Motion
being what it is. It may take a while for u to line up your next shot.

Once I loaded my .44 magnum Ruger SuperBlackhawk with alternating rounds
of .44 special and .44 magnum; the difference is a strange sensation, I gotta say.





David

Yeah; its the same as not carrying a functional jack in your trunk.
U don 't need it, as long as your tires remain round n sound.

As the old saying goes:
its better to HAVE a gun and not NEED one
than it is to NEED a gun and not HAVE one.

Besides: thay r a lot of FUN.



David

Who do you mean by "we," and what do you mean by taking the threat "seriously?" Others have asked what you propose but you haven't responded.

You obviously believe there is serious threat. Can you describe it for us?

Is 88 year old lunatic James von Brunn the spearhead of an organized plot to murder American Jews? Something like the four American Muslims’ plot to bomb synagogues in New York?

Is Scott Roeder the man who murdered George Tiller part of a larger organization with the means and intent to systematically engage in a operation to bomb abortions clinics? Something like the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front that are responsible for some $200 million in property damages and who have not yet killed anyone thanks to luck rather than ideology.

Vonn Brunn and Roeder are vile murderers and their crimes are not to be taken lightly but to assert that they are representative of a serious, widespread threat from "right-wing extremism" is a stretch.

And this post is a transparent effort to suggest that this event is representative of the operations of the much larger and better known Minuteman Civil Defense Corps.

What larger threat did the Uni-Bomber represent: Extreme Luddites?

People who take the extreme action of murdering someone tend to have extreme beliefs and thoughts, but again, it's a huge stretch to contend that people with extreme beliefs and thoughts tend to murder, and if we allow someone with your world view to determine what is an extreme belief or thought, then anyone who voted for George Bush would be considered an extremist.

The pro-choice organizations that immediately condemned Roeder's murder of George Tiller would not fit my definition of "extremist," and neither would The Minuteman Defense Corps. I suspect you disagree.

I was listening to a former FBI agent discuss this very thing just a couple of days ago...after the museum shootings.

From what he was saying, right-wing domestic (to the US) terrorists ARE taken pretty seriously, and groups like the militias, minute-men, neo-nazis etc are watched pretty closely.

I suspect the difficulty is determining when crazy talk such as is common to these people is likely to degenerate into actual acts of terror, like this and the museum thing, Oklahoma City etc. I suspect the groups these people are part of are often shocked when their hate babble turns murderous, too.

I wonder if they often turn in their compadres if they think they are becoming likely to kill? The FBI guy said that they do, sometimes.

I'd be interested to know whether the right to arrest and hold etc passed re alleged foreign terror suspects apply to these scum as well? It would seem only fair that they did....but, as ever, there is a balance between free speech and possible threats to safety.

This holds with stuff like domestic violence terror, too....how often do partner/child killers announce their intentions clearly, but there is little the law can do until they do something? Sadly, what they often do is kill just as they said they would.

I live near a whole bunch of these clowns.

the guy shot Tiller was well known as a vocal wackjob in the local militia...

aarrgh.

I did respond--- did you watch the video I posted? Let me elaborate; there are two separate ways to respond to right-wing extremism.

First, I want (and expect) a government response. Last month the Department of Homeland Security published a report on the threat of domestic terrorism. I would like these programs to be strongly supported at high levels in government and well funded (of course they should act both aggressively and within the law).

Second, there is extremist rhetoric coming from within "mainstream" (if mainstream is measured by the size of their audience) conservative media; from Glen Beck to Rush Limbaugh to Coulter to Terry Randall.

I am as firm a supporter of free speech as you will find-- and an exercise of free speech is exactly the solution here. I want strong condemnations of both the violence acts, and the organizations who provide the rhetoric that justifies them. Groups that support this speech should be challenged, and then shamed. I believe that advertisers should be targeted.

Many people say that Terry Randall (of Operation Rescue) should be held accountable for the violent rhetoric that justifies murder. It turns out that after these murders, this line of attack is very effective (the pro-life folks are put on the defensive).

And that is how free speech regulates itself. But, it takes enough members of the public to say 'enough!'.

Poor you. Thought of moving?

It'd be really interesting if these wackaloons could be studied to see if there is any real way of predicting when they are going to become murderous.

I mean, there are so-called risk assessment tools for dangerousness if someone turns them into mental health authorities, but I don't think they're worth much, and you can't hold people for long anyhoo.

they are anti-government loner types.

nobody outside gets very close.

many more of 'em in Montana and Wyoming.

thinking we may see more of them for a while...

Well put.

This stuff makes me sad.
K
O

Why do you think we'll be seeing more of them?

they are restless and feel threatened by the current administration.

(but i'm just a partially employed chef in nowheresville KS...)

GUNS

You mean because the president is black, or because the administration is what we might call liberal when it comes to spending?

Guns? I own, ahem, more than one handgun. Haven't even thought about ventilating a tin can in a number of years. One of the old shooting places has houses on top of it; the other is underneth a new highway.

guns are bringing premium cash right now in the "heartland", and the shows are becoming more frequent and freaky.

i'm not anti gun, i'm anti gun nut.