San Diego tries to ban Christianity

@BillRM,

Yes, wouldn't that be funny, if the neighbor who complained about the
cars piling up, is a Rabbi. Oh the drama would be unprecedented. Laughing

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@Merry Andrew,

Merry Andrew wrote:

If the street is a public way then how can the city fine me for not keeping this "public way" clear and well-maintained?

By the same rationale by which the city can tax you, or summon you for jury duty. Think of it as a tax you pay in labor instead of dollars.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

You cannot run a bar and dance hall or a church out of a single home zone as a single home and this is under zoning laws and always had been under zoning laws.

But I can invite 15 friends to come party with me every week, and I can invite 15 friends to come pray with me every week. I doubt you can find a long history of zoning laws that specifically prohibit either of that.

BillRM wrote:

do not see where you are coming from are you against all zoning laws and limitation on property used?

Then maybe you should reread my previous post, in which I specifically mentioned a way of zoning the street that would solve your parking problem, and wouldn't run afoul of the Free Exercise Clause.

BillRM wrote:

Is it only because it is a religion used that you have a problem with the enforcement of zoning laws or do you have problems with zoning laws in general?

I don't have a problem with zoning laws in general. I do have two problems with the zoning laws in this case: (1) Inviting 15 friends to ones home should not rise to the level of triggering zoning laws, even if it happens weekly, and no matter what the reason for the invitation is. (2) Zoning laws should make no distinction based on religion unless there is a compelling reason to do so. THe problem in this case, according to the city, is dangerous parking. I don't see how this problem justifies a religious distinction in the zoning law.

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@CalamityJane,

Calamity Jane wrote:

I can't imagine that 15 parked cars do NOT obstruct the free use of the
street, let alone emergency vehicles and fire engines. Fires are a huge concern
in San Diego County and Bonita being a rural area, it is of utmost importance
that roads are accessible to emergency vehicles and fire engines.

Fine! In this case, the police can tell the visitors to park their cars elsewhere, and tow away the cars if they don't. By the reverend's account, which the city did not contradict, it was the police that brought the zoning law and the religious purpose into play.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas you have zoning laws that forbid people who are not related from living in a single home and how many pets you can have in your home and on and on it go.

There is no history that I am aware of that the courts had given a free pass for churches not to follow zoning laws under the constitution or for any other reason.

You are in fact setting up a small church in a neighborhood. Bible meetings my rear-end it is a church if a small church. On going 15 to 25 or more members meetings for religion reasons is a church.

Please tell us all of the court rulings that would allow someone to set up a church in a single home neighborhood against zoning laws.

This is settle law in spit of the crying and emotions being express over attacking good Christians.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

BillRM wrote:
You cannot run a bar and dance hall or a church out of a single home zone as a single home and this is under zoning laws and always had been under zoning laws.

But I can invite 15 friends to come party with me every week, and I can invite 15 friends to come pray with me every week. I doubt you can find a long history of zoning laws that specifically prohibit either of that.

i just had a thought about this. maybe it would mean nothing; does the pastor pass a collection plate at these non-church bible studies?

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Thomas you have zoning laws that forbid people who are not related from living in a single home and how many pets you can have in your home and on and on it go.

1) I find that hard to believe. Please show me!
2) Have these zoning laws ever been challenged in court? Did the courts uphold them? I find that even harder to believe, but I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence.

BillRM wrote:

Bible meetings my rear-end it is a church if a small church. On going 15 to 25 or more

That isn't a fact, that's one point on which the pastor and the county disagree. And I happen to agree with the pastor on this.

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@Thomas,

I been pulling my remaining hair out doing online research or trying to do over this issue.

One thing I found is google books does not allow you to cut and past.

In any case good Christians seem less likely to get into conflicts over private home worship then Jews wiht the zoning people!

Wonder how gunasnake would feel if he found all the parking places gone in his neighborhood due to a home temple?

To sum up a few wins for turning your home into a church base on faults found in the zoning laws wordings when it reach the courts however overall you still far more likely to loss then win.

One Rabbit turn his garage into a worship center in Miami Beach and after the neighbors complain because of parking or lack of same and zoning got involve the court told him to shut it down.

Someone with access to better data banks for case laws then what is open to the public might wish to join in here.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

One Rabbit turn his garage into a worship center in Miami Beach and after the neighbors complain because of parking or lack of same and zoning got involve the court told him to shut it down.

Did he have a Warren permit?

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@Thomas,

) I find that hard to believe. Please show me!
2) Have these zoning laws ever been challenged in court? Did the courts uphold them? I find that even harder to believe, but I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thomas here is the results of a fast google search of fairfax county zoning as an example just because it was the first to come up.

They do not limit the number of cats as my local zoning does to 4 however they do limit the number of dogs by lot size.

And of course they limit the relationship and the number of people living in a single family home see below.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpz/faqs/zoning.htm

The number of dogs permitted as an accessory use must be in accordance with the following:

Number of Dogs Minimum Lot Size
1 to 2 No requirement
3 to 4 12,500 square feet
5 to 6 20,000 square feet
7 or more 25,000 square feet plus 5,000 square feet for each additional dog above 7

The Zoning Ordinance also contains limitations on the occupancy of a dwelling unit. As a matter of right, a dwelling unit may be occupied by not more than one (1) of the following:

One (1) family, which may consist of one (1) person or two (2) or more persons related by blood or marriage with any number of natural children, foster children, step children or adopted children and with not to exceed two (2) roomers or boarders with a Home Occupation Permit.

Two (2) single parents or guardians with not more than a total of six (6) of their dependent children, including natural children, foster children, step children or adopted children, functioning as a single housekeeping unit.

A group of not more than four (4) unrelated persons functioning as a single housekeeping unit.

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@BillRM,

I have to admit that surprises me. And I'm still skeptical that this degree of micromanagement would be upheld by a court if challenged. But you have definitely come a step closer of convincing me.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

The ordinances governing numbers of animals is a health issue that has nothing to do with anything in the Constitution . Its not even a decent comparison.

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@Thomas,

Thomas zoning laws are constantly being challenge for one reason or another as the courts had rule that zoning laws need to be reasonable and that term mean full employment for lawyers.

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@farmerman,

The ordinances governing numbers of animals is a health issue that has nothing to do with anything in the Constitution
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Farmerman health reasons parking/traffic reasons quality of life reasons overall are all cover under the very broad power of zoning laws.

The laws need to be reasonable but given that zoning laws is one hell of a powerful tool for community control.

As far as constitutions protection for religions and how that impact other laws that been in the courts for hundred of years and sometime one side or the other win in that balancing act.

This issue of turning your private home into a religion center and therefore conflicting with zoning laws are hardly new and there seem to be a lot of case law and it seem by my limited search to come down far more on the zoning side however but we need better research.

Still if I was a betting man and this come before a judge the pastor would loss.

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@Thomas,

And I'm still skeptical that this degree of micromanagement would be upheld by a court if challenged
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Thomas the zoning law needs to be reasonable in the judgment of the courts but still most of these issues never even come up.

For example at one time god help me I had seven cats in my household but they was in my home and was not causing a public problem outside my walls so no complains and therefore no problem with zoning. If I had allow them to roam free and scratch my neighbors cars or did not keep a clean home and it begin to smell outside my home then the zoning laws would or could be used as a tool.

If the good pastor had been a better neighbor and found an offsite parking area and shuttle his followers to his home this matter more then likely would never had come up.

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So far there seems to be concerns about the right of Christians to study their bible, and parking/traffic problems; however, would an upside to this intrusion on these bible students be that a precedent is set that no one is picking on adherents, of another religion, that may need to gather five time per day? I would like the local police to have a reason to knock on someone's door if strangers recently came to town and kept gathering at a specific home.

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it looks like this is not the first time pastor jones has had problems with the county over permits in his ministerial endeavors;

Quote:

In one year, the church was able to acquire a property in National City, at the exact exit off the freeway where he had prayed to plant a church. The name of the church was changed to Gospel Light Bible Church.

http://www.thelearnerguys.com/History_2.html

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4Uy9Dz_BS9s/SKstJInfFDI/AAAAAAAAAWs/zN-wqg-H62Y/scan0106.jpg

this a link to the main page of south bay community church;

http://www.thelearnerguys.com/Welcome.html

oddly, when looking at the church's event calendar, the facility has active use on sunday (all day) and in the evening only 2 other nites per week. i.e., 4 of 7 are open for religious activities.

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Zoning laws which limit the number of unrelated persons living in the same domicile have been attempts to prevent a home-owner from turning a large house into a rooming house, and have often been associated with student housing in university towns. These have usually not survived court challenges--but then, students don't generally have the kind of money necessary to launch a court battle. Those who have enough money from daddy to hire a law dog are unlikely to be living cheek-by-jowl in a rooming house with other students.

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@Setanta,

In Pa its simple. The number of PERMANENT residents is governed either by
1number of bedrooms

2size of sepetic system

Now if some AMISHMAN came along and tried to fit his gramma and her man into a family house(Before a grossdawdy house was even considered)the PA MPC makes reservations for that (As well as the number of horses per acre if your AMish). Normally the MPC makes ordinances conform to 2 acres for the first horse and then one acre thereafter (Thats the ruling for the "English"). For AMish, the second class Twp code allows for 1 horse for one acre and 1.5 horses per acre thereafter.

WIsconsin v Yoder had many implications that resulted from " practices consistent with ones religious beliefs" I betcha Wisconsin and some other connected decisions get pulled out of the brown-round for this case (Unless of course San Diego punts and just tries to let it slip by)

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The examples to which i refer are, of course, anecdotal evidence, although in the second case, i was told by a member of the landlord-tenants union that this sort of thing was common in university towns. The first example in the mid-70s was from the second largest university in the state. There was a core of old Victorian houses in the center of town, in disrepair, that realtors couldn't give away, and which had been converted to rooming houses. This was creeping into other neighborhoods, though, in a town where the town-gown animosity was high. But that town is also mobile home heaven, and the no more than two unrelated persons rule enraged the owners of vast (and they were) trailer parks on the edges of the town. They got together with student activists (politics, as it does, making strange bedfellows) and a landlord tenants union was formed, with the zoning law challenged successfully.

The other two examples were in the late 70s and in the early 90s, and in both cases, these were the largest universities in their respective states, and one was in the state capital. Landlord tenant unions already existed, and they knocked down the new zoning ordinances pretty quickly using sunshine laws, because in both cases, the ordinances were passed by the boards in closed sessions, and were never put to a vote. The guy from the landlord-tenants union i talked to pointed out that such ordinances almost always step on the toes of large land-owners who are raking it in from properties for which they have minimal maintenance costs, and those guys are willing to make common cause with l-t unions.

1 Reply

San Diego tries to ban Christianity

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