San Diego tries to ban Christianity

@genoves,

I haven't seen any of the smaller towns on the list yet. I probably should. I spent the formative years of my childhood in medium-sized university towns, and I'm kind of imprinted to like them.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

A simple web search is so overwhelmed with Republican outrage at the city, I can't find the pricing.

That must be frustrating. Thanks for trying!

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
A simple web search is so overwhelmed with Republican outrage at the city, I can't find the pricing.

That must be frustrating. Thanks for trying!

it's not the number of people, but the frequency with which they have potential to impede the parking and or driving of the neighbors.

in our neighborhood, which was built in the mid to late 1920's, parking is a little tight. the occasional large gathering can be worked around, more or less. but if the people next door had a gathering of 15 or so people every week... we'd have to break out the pitchforks and torches.

in looking into the pastor jones and his church (using the info that fox news provided), i found the following picture of his church, Southbay Community Church. it's a big'un. beats me why he doesn't just hold his prayer meetings in the rather large, tax exempt facility that he has an all access pass to.

http://maps.google.com/local_url?q=http://base.googlehosted.com/base_media%3Fq%3DLBC-10172817-3830576464%26size%3D1%26hl%3Den&dq=South+Bay+Community+Church+san+diego,+california&f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&vps=2&jsv=160f&sll=37.579413,-95.712891&sspn=51.329563,83.320312&ie=UTF8&cd=1&latlng=32667942,-117077645,3731014512878970902&ei=EHcgSub1EImYiQOZgaG9Bw&iwd=1&fb=0&dtab=5&oi=md_photos&sa=X&ct=photo&cad=LBC&s=ANYYN7l-sDa6VX8-F64vVo2r3LtdXe7sqw

in yet another fox news article, the number of people attending these weekly prayer meetings is stated a little different from the earlier report;

Quote:

We are talking about as little as five [people], a high meeting of 27, but on average 15," explains Jones. "To find that the county says this is a code violation is really wrong."

more;

Quote:

The county claims Jones’ home isn’t zoned for parking, but he doesn’t see that as an issue.... However, according to Chandra Wallar, a San Diego County representative, someone filed a complaint last month stating the bible study was causing parking troubles in the cul-de-sac.

The county looked into the complaint. "There was parking that prevented access for emergency vehicles, and there was parking on the resident lot which violates our code," Wallar says.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/national/dpgo_San_Diego_Fines_Pastor_for_Bible_Study_mb_05292009_2523807

other additional info includes; a person visiting a neighbor of the jones filed a police report saying that one of the prayer meetings hit his car while leaving.

fox news of course, is running with the story spinning it with their usual "war on all things christian" razzle dazzle.

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@farmerman,

WHAT IS SAID IN MY FIRST POST HAS NOT BEEN SUCCESSFULLY ARGUED AWAY IMO

Quote:

All "nuisance" ordinances aside (And we really do need to read what the ordinances do say before we project), the rights of religious assembly and the "Free expression" clauses are being ,technically , disemboweled with a thousand surface cuts if this goes unchallenged.

Those of us who are particlular about the fineness of point in the "establishment clause" need to make sure that we see the equal measure of sanity that must prevail in this one.
Bifurcating the "nuisance" issue from the religious one is what should be done, in other words, the entire case should be built only on the parking load. NOW, howvere, I think that San Diego has spilt its beans on this and turned it into a constitutional case.

ANYONE who doesnt think that this will enter into a case that will impinge on codes of ordinances country-wide is uninformed.
In a case like this an equal burden of proof will be on the municipality to show that the way it enforced its ordinances DID NOT INFRINGE on the free expression of the groups religious preference.San Diego can have nuisance regs and parking codes etc. The violation of any one of these is simply enforced on its own. However the wording of the violation notice specifically goes to the heart of a groups constitutional rights of free expression and assembly.
I dont think that San Diego consciously did it, they just bobbled an information and, if the wording and notifications are correctly reported, theyve started a small tempest that only time will tell how big itll get.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

if the wording and notifications are correctly reported, theyve started a small tempest that only time will tell how big itll get.

there certainly those who are aching for anything like this to cry victim on. if you see the sekulows and terrys coming, you know it will turn into another terry schiavo extravaganza.

on the other hand, doesn't the pastor, jones, need to present real world evidence that the conversation with the county official happened the way he said it did; i.e. "do you say amen?" etc.?

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@farmerman,

I agree. San Diego's notice, as quoted in the article, implies that its zoning laws confine religious assembly to particular parts of the city, and that religious assembly is forbidden outside those zones unless you buy a permit. It's plainly obvious that such a religion-based distinction between zones would cause serious constitutional problems under the free expression clause.

San Diego could easily solve the problem by passing zoning laws that apply to assembly in general, whether it's religious or not.

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@DontTreadOnMe,

DontTreadOnMe wrote:

on the other hand, doesn't the pastor, jones, need to present real world evidence that the conversation with the county official happened the way he said it did; i.e. "do you say amen?" etc.?

A speaker for San Diego County didn't dispute that part of the story when interviewed by 10news.

http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

But to answer your question: no, he doesn't have to present evidence. The religion-based distinction in the zoning law is enough to cause constitutional problems. Give every wrongly parked car a ticket -- no problem. Zone the street for parking and only give locals a license to park -- no problem. Have zoning laws that apply to assemblies of whatever purpose -- no problem. But I'll bet you 10:1 that any court will find this specific distinction for religious assembly in the zoning law to be constitutionally naughty. And I'll bet you 3:1 that the county will consult its lawyers, then drop the matter like a hot potato.

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@DontTreadOnMe,

Quote:

there certainly those who are aching for anything like this to cry victim on.

WAIT a minute bunky, SAN DIEGO wrote the information. Please dont **** in my cornflakes that some of us arent interpreting it properly in your mind.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

And I'll bet you 3:1 that the county will consult its lawyers, then drop the matter like a hot potato.

DAMN thatll take the fun out of it.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
there certainly those who are aching for anything like this to cry victim on.
WAIT a minute bunky, SAN DIEGO wrote the information. Please dont **** in my cornflakes that some of us arent interpreting it properly in your mind.

no, you wait, spunky. my comment was not directed at you. Very Happy

doesn't it seem a little suspicious to you that this story has been spread far and wide by fox news? the blogs credit fox news?

they thrive on this kind of stuff.

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@DontTreadOnMe,

So its not worthy of further consideration because FOX broke it? Nya Yevyim?

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

So its not worthy of further consideration because FOX broke it? Nya Yevyim?

i don't take anything for granted. and especially not fox. from what i read, the county is looking at it as a zoning problem, both for use and parking.

i just think that there is some spin going on.

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If it was a negro church group nothing would have come from it.

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@Thomas,

I am too, Mr. Thomas. Cambridge leads them all. But I am very much afraid that the US public does not really know about the large majority of the smaller towns that house Universities and colleges. I think there are more than 4,000 Universities, Colleges and Junior Colleges in the USA. We only read and hear about a few--Cambridge, Berkeley, Princeton, Palo Alto--but we do not realize that there are many other institutions which influence the thinking of its graduates--many of which are either fully mainstream or leaning right.

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@cjhsa,

cjhsa wrote:

If it was a negro church group nothing would have come from it.

if it were negroes, they wouldn't have been living there. praise jesus. but only the one that looks like jeffery hunter.

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@Thomas,

So it is your position that the neighbors who have a right to enjoy their properties and by the odds are surely all good Christians themselves are out of luck because of the wording of a zoning law?

I would think that the neighbors themselves would have a civil course of action against these idiots for interfering with their peaceful and lawful used of their properties.

In any case I love gunasnake claims of a religion attacks on poor god fearing Christians by what the law of probability would likely be all or almost all good Christians themselves just trying to raise their families in peace.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

So it is your position that the neighbors who have a right to enjoy their properties and by the odds are surely all good Christians themselves are out of luck because of the wording of a zoning law?

1) I disagree with your premise here, since the issue, according to the city, is unsafe parking on public roads. These roads are not the neighbors' property to enjoy. Anyone can park on these roads. You. Me. Families meeting after their daughter's soccer match every Saturday. And yes, even Christians meeting for Bible study every Sunday.

2) With this point out of the way, my answer to your question is yes: Yes, they're out of luck. Fortunately, San Diego county can easily fix the problem by rewording the zoning law in a manner that's neutral about religion, or by handing out plain old parking tickets to any car that is parked unsafely.

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Do we know that San Diego County's land use ordinance specifically and uniquely bans religious gatherings, or are we relying on some third party testimony, such as that of Faux News? If religious gatherings are mentioned, and mentioned exclusively, the county commissioners certainly have shot themselves in the collective foot. But if religious gatherings are a part of a laundry list, things might not look so black of SD County.

Anybody got the low down skinny here, or are we just railing against a set of assumptions?

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@Thomas,

Sorry but if you block or greatly interfere with my law legal access to my property it is a matter of property rights in my non-lawyer openion.

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@Thomas,

In fact if memory serve me correctly I had even read about lawsuits due to the blocking of someone view because of the building of a tall structure therefore reducing their property value.

Surely having an ongoing problem with accessing your land due to this kind of behavior is going to reduce the value of your property to say the least.

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San Diego tries to ban Christianity

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