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Mon 4 May, 2009 06:58 am
I am still puzzled by the issue of relationships between a man in a higher position and a woman in a lower position where an affair or relationship leads to firing the man involved or it is ok with the institution but others see it as immoral. Let's exclude sexual harassment - it has nothing to do with it, I hope, as sexual harassment means that the woman or the man involved feels a victim and may complain. I mean a mutually agreed affair or relationship. And let's exclude teacher- student relatioship if the student is still a child under 18. So I mean cases like male boss sleeps with his female office worker or male doctor sleeps with a female nurse or male basketball couch sleeps with a female player etc. In some cases, it is allowed legally and it is nobody's business while in some cases you get fired. So this is one confusing aspect. Why ok here but not ok there? What is the difference between a female university student who wants to have an affair with a teacher, and an office worker who wants to have an affair with a manager? One explanation would be - the student teacher relationship could lead to unfair grading, advantages for the student, but so would an office worker profit from sleeping with a manager. In the latter case, the manager doesn't lose his job, as far as I know, but I also know that some women look down on a man who sleeps with his office worker. Why? And I know some very successful men who look down on a couch who picks up one of his players. One of the richest bankers in our country said in an interview that "a volleyball couch who sleeps with his players is not playing fair play." Althouth they, rich managers, can freely pick up as many office workers as they feel like picking up. It seems the society has not only double standards but multiple standards for different jobs. The richer you are, the higher the position you have, unless you are a politician and under control of the media, the more freedom you have when it comes to who you can sleep with.
damn it's hard to read that
most relationships within a business or organization, where one person has an unfair advantage over another are generally prohibited or not encouraged, a professor and student is bad because a professor can impact negatively a students academic achievements if the relationship goes bad
many businesses have policies regarding employees dating, and some have policies against hiring married couples or family members
@ryunin,
The issue seems to be whether the person of higher authority can have undue influence on the career of the person of lower authority.
Can they promote that person unfairly? Can they negatively impact that person in the case of a breakup?
Either scenario could end up harming the organization to which the people belong, so the organization discourages such relationships.
@djjd62,
hard to read because I am not native and not familiar with this kind of language
Anyway - could you define "unfair advantage"? Does a chief surgeon have an unfair advantage over a surgeon rookie? How and how does it morally connect to their possible sexual relationship? I am not really defending my point, just trying to figure out what is going on. When it comes to businesses with policies, I don't think such businesses care about how moral their employees are, rather how much money they can make, but I am interested in the moral aspect only. Also I have no idea if it is necessary to make sure a student's academic achievements are not negatively impacted, if the relationship goes bad. If my own relationship goes bad, even if it has nothing to do with my job, it could ruin my career, so that would logically mean discouraging all relationships including marriage as their failure is threat to one's career, and we know it often is. At least not more often than failed university student-teacher relationships.
@DrewDad,
This makes sense. I don't know if it makes sense in case of a couch-player relationship. It seems men are jealous of couches who have plenty of young athletes they can choose from. And can it harm the team - yes, the couch could support his girlfriend too much and be unfair to the other athletes. But I am not sure if basketball or volleyball results have anything to do with morals. At university it may lead to certain mess, I see, and harm the university's reputation and it is like polluting a river that we all enjoy... When it comes to managers sleeping with receptionists, can you imagine a situation where it would really harm the business? I suspect the woman who told me that she is turned off by a manager who sleeps with a receptionist doesn't care at all if a business fails. Let's see what some women have to say about this.
@ryunin,
by unfair advantage, i meant, somebody in a superior position can negatively impact somebody in a lesser position, no advancement in the company or institution, influence hiring or firing, influence hours of work and possibly wages
there are two aspects to the morality of it, is it immoral to love someone who is in a superior position to you in a company or institution, no, if the person in the superior position uses that position to negatively impact the other person if the relationship goes wrong, i would say that's morally wrong
@Phoenix32890,
Thank you. I guess I read Kafka too much. (no paragraphs in his work)
@djjd62,
OK so unless the relationship goes wrong, there is nothing wrong with it morally. Why do some women look down on such a manager? And why do some men find it unfair that a couch of a female team has access to a lot of young athletes for potential affairs? It seems a woman is afraid that such a man (manager picking up an office worker) would easily start an affair while married - women want someone faithful - and in case of a man, he feels the couch doesn't have to try hard to find a partner and cuts a corner, while he who doesn't train young women, has to try hard to find a partner, which in case of a banker doesn't make much sense as he has a lot of young female subordinates who will be as accessible as a group of female volleyball players.
@ryunin,
ryunin wrote:
OK so unless the relationship goes wrong, there is nothing wrong with it morally.
I'm not sure that's the case. A manager that favors a significant other over other, better qualified, personnel is making a morally questionable choice.
@ryunin,
ryunin wrote:And why do some men find it unfair that a couch of a female team has access to a lot of young athletes for potential affairs?
It's not that it is "unfair access". The problem is that the coach is in a position of authority over the players. That creates the possibility of predatory behavior.
@DrewDad,
Somehow, coach sounds better than couch, all things considered.
@ryunin,
ryunin wrote:
OK so unless the relationship goes wrong, there is nothing wrong with it morally.
No. If the relationship goes wrong, there is a large chance of negative repurcussions, but it's wrong either way. If one member of the romance is in a position of signicant advantage over the other, you have a situation where the senior person could coerce the junior one. Or the junior one could ask for quid pro quo from the senior resulting in harm to a third person. If the coach you are concerned about wants to pursue a relationship with a player, resign from the team. If he's just looking for casual sex, doing so within the team sets up all sorts of bad dynamics for both the coach and all of the players.
@roger,
Freudian slip, me thinks.
I do not believe this is illegal, but is most likely against company policy at many organizations. And also I do not think it matters whether the male or female is in the position of power. Most businesses will have a policy against such a relationship between a manager and a subordinate. Usually this is to avoid favoritism and/or the appearance of favoritism. For example, if this subordinate gets a promotion/raise or other " was it earned by performing their job well (or by performing sexual favors). Basically the same advantages you describe for a student/teacher relationship is similar to the manager/employee situation.
I personally know of one situation like this "the manager (a male) married too which also caused friction, and a female that reported to him began an affair. Suddenly this female began the fast track to promotions and raises and bonuses. The surprising thing is this manager was spoken to, but nothing happened " no repercussions. They are still seeing each and he is getting a divorce. An indication of why I do not work at this organization any longer.
I personally look down on this manager as in this situation " he cheated on his wife; he used his position of power to get better raises and promotion for this individual. In my opinion you do not date some one who reports to you whether you are available (not attached) or not. If you are interested in dating some one that reports to you, either you or that individual should move so that there is no appearance of favoritism.
I don't know why it all sounds so far away and strange to me. I feel like I am still a child, in this respect, like I don't understand the world of adults and their affairs. If I were a manager and had an affair with a subordinate, she would definitely not get any advantages from me. Because I would not see any reason to do it and if she expected me to do so, I would not respect her any more. I am not defending the situation, just saying that in my case, there would be no difference at workplace, but I am just such a naive, silly person who doesn't play these games. But thank you for explaining the strange world of adults to me. I know I am not stupid, plus I am interested in sociology, but in real life, I am socially a bit retarded, no kidding, that's a fact and people say it about me (I am 42).
@ryunin,
No you are naive, but the thing is not everyone would act they way you would. Many people do play these games. And companies want to avoid even the appearance of favoritism. So even if you would not treat this person any differently (as far as work performance), any time this individual would be recognized/promoted, etc., it could have the appearance of favoritism. To me, I would prefer to avoid that situation and the conservative approach would be for either the manager to change roles (manage a different group of individuals) or the employee to move under a different manager.
I would also consider the situation where a manager is already married and begins an affair - right from that aspect it shows that this person is willing to "cheat" on his wife - some one that he made vows to - how trustworthy is he to handle this relationship and his power as a manager appropriately?
@Linkat,
I agree - the whole situation is not ideal and quite complicated. Also there is a difference between some kind of sexual adventure, even if both of them are single, and a serious, commited relationship that would lead to a stable family and kids, happy ending and stuff.
Of course, a married guy is a different story completely.
I think some women may feel very opposed to the social cliche of a strong, powerful, guy in a tuxedo (James Bond, typically) who seduces an attractive woman who has a lesser position. Old fashioned people love this scenario - take Pretty Woman, where he has the power and money and she needs the "job". I think a modern woman might hate this kind of cliche and expect the man she likes to find someone on the same level or even higher.
@ryunin,
Yes - more independent women do not like this "take charge man". When I was single, I once went on a blind date. The man was financially successful. He told me if you were to go out with me, you wouldn't need to worry about a thing - he meant financially he would take care of me. It was actually a turn off for me. I thought, I don't need some one to take care of me - I am more than capable of taking care of myself!
@ryunin,
I also think whatever the relationship is - you do not want the impression of favoring another employee. Having a love relationship whether just sexual or deeper or as in a family member could lead to the impression of favoritism best to not have reporting lines when such a relationship exists.
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