Pandering Progressives:Is AG Holder Right about Racism?

People like Diest TKO bloviate about AA, but they really don't know very much about it.

Can Diest TKO explain why Black students in almost all major Universities in the USA are overrepresented in the lower half of the class?

Hint--It's not IQ. It's the dysfunctional black culture, which, of course,HOLDER, WHO I AM CERTAIN, RECEIVED AA, WILL NEVER ADMIT.

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Aidan wrote:

And I don't think this feeling of otherness or differentness can really be dissipated unless people DO desegregate socially.
One of my favorite activities at the last public school I taught at in the US was our Unity Dinner. It was always in February - and we had people of all races-students, parents, teachers, administrators, and any guest anyone wanted to bring, coming together - everyone brought a dish from their culture and we all ate dinner together, listened to poetry and music, danced-in other words got to know each other as something other than black or white or hispanic or asian.

I think these are the sort of activities, rather than mandated conversations on race, that will end up making any sort of difference in desegregating socially.

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I don't know how many years Aidan taught. I was a teacher and a central office administrator in a large American city for sixteen years. During that time,I had many Black acquaintances, but only ONE BLACK FRIEND.

The reason I had only one black friend is that that wonderful man did not believe in AA,was opposed to welfare and reparations and was a true conservative. I dont have any liberal friends. They may be acquaintances but I cannot gain any rapport or empathy with anyone who believes an ideology like that of Barack Obama.

There are some black children who do well in schools. Those are the children of parents who do not believe that the white man hates them and that they cannot succeed because of racism. These parents are the ones that come to school for parent conferences. These are the parents who, if necessary, move their children to voucher schools or parochial schools. These are the parents who hide the basketball until all of the homework is completed.

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Aidan wrote:

Strom Thurmond was racist til the end of his life - and a hypocrite to boot. No one who was committed to freedom and equal treatment of all people would EVER have wanted him to be president.
END OF QUOTE

And, Thurmond was excoriated by the press. He was rendered anathema. So much so that anyone speaking of him in any positive way would be tainted.

But, on the Black side, we have the revered Reverend Farrakhan, who is ten times the racist and hater that Strom Thurmond ever was and Farrakhan is largely protected by the main stream media.

Both men were racists. But, anyone who compares Thurmond's views with Farrakhan's views knows that Farrakhan is the MASTER RACIST.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

I can't speak for the education of others, but mine (parochial schools) provided a fairly complete and balanced description of all the various peoples who have contributed to our common culture, accompanied by a persistent emphasis on our common human nature and equal worth as human beings. None of the names Holder recited were unfamiliar to me, nor were the details of slavery, the slave trade, the political and military struggle for abolition, the Reconstruction, the emergence of Jim Crow, official segregation in the South and more or less equivalent intolerance in the North, all culminating in the Civil Rights struggle that was, at least in its legal terms, successfully resolved in the 1960s

.

Again, I think this is a key difference in terms of the generational differences that were implemented in education, and also perhaps, highlights a difference in the education received by those in private as opposed to public schools.
By the time I entered high school we weren't required to take American History - in fact, in my school system it wasn't even called history- it was called Social Studies. And it was more of an amalgamation of current events, civics, and sociology than anything else. Very interesting, actually- and I enjoyed it- but weak and lacking in terms of the real factual history of the US. It wasn't until I was in college, that I was required to take a course in American history as a core course as part of my liberal arts degree.

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We are entering our fourth decade of affirmative action with respect to Black Americans. I believe that is enough and do indeed resent its continuation. More importantly, I believe that the real victims here are the Blacks themselves, who are being systematically deprived of responsibility for themselves and ownership of the successes they increasingly do achieve.

I do agree with this.

Quote:

With respect to our public schools, there appears to be a growing emphasis on indoctrination in "approved" social values and themes, all as an unhappy substitute for real education in history, literature and science. In such a system I suppose the list of fashionable themes needs to be updated periodically, but that is at best an unfortunate substitution.

I also agree with this.
But a problem that I always come back to ( which brings me back to Holder's speech and what I find to be the validity in it) is the fact that I know, because I have seen, that there are very distinct differences in the level of school or academic readiness in many communities. Unfortunately, it often breaks down by race. Not surprising really, when you once again go back to the demographic facts, which cannot be denied, about different racial subsets.
And there IS an historically real and present causative factor in some of the negative attitudes which inform the behavior that becomes, in essence ,self-defeating.

Okay - these are facts. And yes, I agree that these attitudes and behaviors are certainly not productive and indeed self-defeating. But my frustration comes when those on the other side of the issue (which I will say is a barrier if only figuratively, and nothing more than a lack of understanding) say- 'We've done enough- get over it-we're not talking about it anymore, and we're done helping.'

Because what has not been changed - I don't think- is the level of acceptance of and/or understanding of how being looked at as 'less than' affects a person- and that person's children-and that person's grandchildren. And how a lack of educational and economic opportunity can affect a family generationally.
It also affects a person's willingness to participate in the society and that society's institutions, which has historically looked at and treated them as 'less than'.

Again, I do realize the wise thing to do would be to say, 'So what - I'm gonna do what I need to do for myself and show them who's less than.'
And I think more and more people are doing that - but I also think there indeed does need to be more dialogue and social desegregation so that maybe those who still feel that others are looking at them as inherently 'less than' will see that maybe that's not really the case.

And I'm going out on a real limb here and saying that I think higher education, as long as it remains as prohibitively expensive as it has become, is elitist.
And given the facts about our country's racial demographics and history of academic and economic inequalities-I personally believe that there should be a tuition cap, making it more attainable and available to people of all economic, social, cultural and racial backgrounds.
And until something like this is implemented- on a national and federal basis- not state by state- there will always be a great divide among those in our society who are able to access education and subsequent economic security and those who aren't.

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@genoves,

Genoves said:

Quote:

I don't know how many years Aidan taught. I was a teacher and a central office administrator in a large American city for sixteen years. During that time,I had many Black acquaintances, but only ONE BLACK FRIEND.

I don't know what to say, except that I'm sorry for you. I taught twenty years and in school and out, I have many black friends.

Quote:

The reason I had only one black friend is that that wonderful man did not believe in AA,was opposed to welfare and reparations and was a true conservative. I dont have any liberal friends. They may be acquaintances but I cannot gain any rapport or empathy with anyone who believes an ideology like that of Barack Obama.

I also have many conservative friends - in fact my entire family votes Republican- straight ticket - no matter what! And I love and respect them dearly- wouldn't trade them for the world.
But I don't believe everyone has to be just like me.
You should try it. It's much more interesting I think.

Quote:

There are some black children who do well in schools. Those are the children of parents who do not believe that the white man hates them and that they cannot succeed because of racism.

Interestingly enough, many of the young black adults I taught last year- though thrown out of every public school they attended and not allowed to return to public education in the state of New York, told me that they believed they caused most of their own problems. They didn't blame it on anyone but themselves.
Maybe you should talk to some of these kids before you tell them and everyone else what they believe.

Quote:

These parents are the ones that come to school for parent conferences. These are the parents who, if necessary, move their children to voucher schools or parochial schools. These are the parents who hide the basketball until all of the homework is completed.

And thank god- because there are a lot of parents of ALL races who pander to and coddle their kids today.
A bigger problem than basketball is the computer in the bedroom - I believe.

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@aidan,

Yes, Aidan, and after all of the personal garbage you wrote, you still did not address the EVIDENCE I posted on the Kansas City schools.

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Aidan wrote:

You should try it. It's much more interesting I think.
end of quote
I am very sorry but my personal morality and my scholastic background does not allow me to vote for Socialism. The implosion of the Soviet Union and the march of Capitalism throughout the world leads me to the irrevocable conclusion that Socialism does not work.

Whatever you may say, I view Obama as a SOCIALIST. I also viewed most of the black people I was aquainted with as REDISTRIBUTIONISTS.

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Aidan wrote:

And thank god- because there are a lot of parents of ALL races who pander to and coddle their kids today.
A bigger problem than basketball is the computer in the bedroom - I believe.

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That shows that you know NOTHING about the inner city, Aidan.

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Aidan wrote:

Interestingly enough, many of the young black adults I taught last year- though thrown out of every public school they attended and not allowed to return to public education in the state of New York, told me that they believed they caused most of their own problems. They didn't blame it on anyone but themselves.
Maybe you should talk to some of these kids before you tell them and everyone else what they believe.

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I don't believe you were a teacher. No trained teacher would rely on ANECDOTAL evidence --garbage------Many of the young black adults I taught last year though thrown out of every public school they attended and not allowed to return to public education in the state of New York, told me that they believed they caused most of their own problems.

Really? Was this printed in a newspaper or magazine? If not, put that back in the imaginary pidgeon hole and RE-READ my EVIDENCE about the Kansas City schools.

Money And School Performance:
Lessons from the Kansas City Desegregation Experiment
by Paul Ciotti

Paul Ciotti lives in Los Angeles and writes about education.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Executive Summary

For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, "You can't solve educational problems by throwing money at them." The education establishment and its supporters have replied, "No one's ever tried." In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil--more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can't be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.
******************************************************************

Again, Dysfunctional culture is the major reason why blacks cannot achieve at a decent level in schools.

I can cite tons of evidence on this. You give me unsourced BS opinion.

Get real!!

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@genoves,

I'm not saying the computer in the bedroom is a bigger problem IN THE INNER CITY than the basketball.

I do know that very many inner city children do not have access to a household computer - which does put them at a disadvantage in today's educational arena. Actually in terms of projects, etc., a personal computer and printer are an equalizer- help level the playing field. The fact that many minority and/or disadvantage children don't have them only serves to help widen the gap.

But in the suburbs - where a lot of kids have their own personal computer in their own bedroom- they don't go to sleep at night. And a lot of them aint using it to do homework, if you get my drift.

So for a teacher - that computer in the bedroom- can be a big negative issue.

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@genoves,

Actually Genoves- I differ in what I view as valid evidence and who and what and how to ascertain if something can be believed.. I'm the type of person who has to experience something before I believe it. I don't necessarily have to read something's that's been published to come to a belief or conclusion.
And even if I do read it - I like to also see it in action and understand how and why it might work the way it does.

You know, like in science class how they tell you about why the volcano explodes and then you make a model and they SHOW you exactly what happens?

It's a pretty tried and true method of learning. It's called EXPERIENTIAL learning.

I do trust what I see with my own eyes and what I hear with my own ears.

You don't have to believe anything I say though.

Quote:

Again, Dysfunctional culture is the major reason why blacks cannot achieve at a decent level in schools.

This is exactly what I said. I think we just have different ways of viewing how and why it exists and what to do about it.

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@aidan,

Do you understand English? Or do you want me to post the evidence again?

In Kansas City, where the schools were largely black,tons of money did not help because of the disfunctional black culture.

What you don't know is that in most inner city schools, Blacks cannot read well enough to use a computer. Do you need some EVIDENCE ON THAT?

I have it.

Now, teacher, address the Kansas City evidence or butt out!!!

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Well, I have never really met a solipsist before. Solipsists are delusional idiots.'

They don't believe what they read. They must experience things themselves.

When a can of cleaner reads" Do NOT use without wearing gloves, the moron who must experience things for himself or herself, disdains the gloves.

How in the world did you teach anything? You don't believe it unless you experience it yourself?

You are not a teacher. You are a charlathan!

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@genoves,

Quote:

For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, "You can't solve educational problems by throwing money at them." The education establishment and its supporters have replied, "No one's ever tried." In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil--more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can't be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.

Exactly - money is NOT the issue in schools. I absolutely agree. There is a much more intangible culture of distrust and avoidance that needs to be addressed.
This is EXACTLY what Eric Holder said in his speech, and what I have been agreeing with him on here on this thread.

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Aidan wrote:

This is exactly what I said. I think we just have different ways of viewing how and why it exists and what to do about it.

end of quote

You agree that blacks have a dysfunctional culture but you have NOT given a complete and thorough solution to solving the problem. Since you are limited to your own experience( you said so) your solutions can not be applicable to the entire USA.

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@genoves,

Quote:

Well, I have never really met a solipsist before. Solipsists are delusional idiots.'

They don't believe what they read. They must experience things themselves.

When a can of cleaner reads" Do NOT use without wearing gloves, the moron who must experience things for himself or herself, disdains the gloves.

How in the world did you teach anything? You don't believe it unless you experience it yourself?

You are not a teacher. You are a charlathan!

Well, I guess you got me there (with the can of cleaner thing). That would be pretty stupid wouldn't it.

I meant that I tend to trust my own experience along with what I read (about education- as well as many other things actually) moreso than just straight reading.
I'm a hands-0n learner.
What can I tell you.

Now go to a conservative church and say a prayer for me (since I'm a charlatan! I must be heading straight to hell!)

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@genoves,

Quote:

You agree that blacks have a dysfunctional culture but you have NOT given a complete and thorough solution to solving the problem. Since you are limited to your own experience( you said so) your solutions can not be applicable to the entire USA.

I wish I did have a complete and thorough solution. I wish anybody did- nobody does- that's why the dialogue can't stop yet.

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No, Aidan, you are wrong:

Exactly - money is NOT the issue in schools. I absolutely agree. There is a much more intangible culture of distrust and avoidance that needs to be addressed.
end of quote
The black culture is dysfunctional. It is not dysfunctional because of any distrust and avoidance by anyone except blacks---or are you completely unfamiliar( I think so since you only know things which you have experienced yourself) with AA,Tons of money thrown at black schools since the Great Society, black insistence on welfare and reparations, black charges of racism again and again in instances which do not fall under that category.

Are you so dense that you don't know that there is NO De Jure discrimination in the USA anymore. Any discrimination which exists has to be DE FACTO.

Much of the DEFACTO discrimination exists NOT because of distrust and avoidance of blacks because they are black, defacto discrimnation exists because blacks do not want to change their dysfunctional culture.

If you really need some guidelines on this, I suggest you read Cosby, but, then,I forgot, you don't read or believe anything which is not in your experience.

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I have a solution. It is not easy to do and will take time but it is a solution.

Blacks should imitate another minority--Asians. If they began to do that, many problems would begin to disappear.

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@aidan,

And while we are doing the "dialogue", I suppose we must put up with the wasteful AA, and the rest of the black dysfunctionality laid down so well by Dr.Walter Williams( on this thread and quoted by Foxfyre) with regard to welfare, illlegitmacy,crime, and drop outs.

Let/s stop the BS dialogue. The black community must heal itself and throw out the racist race card players like Jackson and Sharpton!!!

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Pandering Progressives:Is AG Holder Right about Racism?

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