23
   

can someone tell me about ann coulter?

 
 
A Lone Voice
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 10:50 pm
@JTT,
JT, you're back!

I thought I had you fleeing this thread after your nonsense?

I saw you came back after others bashed Reagan; it seems to have bolstered your spirits.

So we're at least agreed Reagan was not a war criminal and felon?

At least where it was proved in a court of law, (as I pointed out with Clinton's perjury case, as an example of a real criminal charge against a president), wing nut opinions notwithstanding?

All these opinions here are tightly held beliefs, and while I recognize their passion, they are just, after all, opinions.

As I (again) pointed out, just because you 'progressives' really, really, really wish something was true does not make it so.

As much as you and the others despise Reagan, there are others who admire him as one of the best presidents of the 20th Century.

Just as 20 years from now, many of you will celebrate Obama as the best president before the economic collapse of the US, while others will probably blame him and polices for it...
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 02:18 am
@Advocate,
You may be right, Advocate, but you may also be wrong. I have learned in the past that those who cannot answer my posts are either too stupid to do so or cannot handle the research necessary to rebut my points. Intellectual cowards always run from a debate. But, I do not post primarily for the left wing which, as a group are a bunch of ideologues who do not realize that Marxism and Socialism are not the only forms of government available.

Since people like Drew Dad and JTT do nothing but bluster and make two line posts which include NO EVIDENCE OR DOCUMENTATION, their absence from the debate does not weaken it--it strengthens it. As far as I am concerned, when I make a post and it is not rebutted--IT STANDS!!!!
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 02:21 am
@A Lone Voice,
Lone Voic e--If you check out my evidence( from the Professional Historian Survey-C Span- Feb. 2009) you will find that they named Ronald Reagan as the 10th best President the US has ever had. Posters like JTT and Drew Dad fulminate but never provide credible rebuttal.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 08:10 am
@genoves,
So you agree that Clinton was the fifteenth best president we ever had?

I looked up some of those historians and they are a cross section of political sides.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 09:03 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

i don't believe in the ignore button, so while i didn't read your post again, i did have to scroll past it to catch up

The thumbs down button works great for getting rid of long posts you don't want to scroll past.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 09:55 am
@A Lone Voice,
Reagan was a war criminal and felon by virtue of his actions in Nicaragua. There was a chance that he would have been impeached over this were it not for his senility.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:22 am
@A Lone Voice,
Flee, from a delusional character like you; perish the thought. I'm truly astounded to see just how delusional, just how ignorant you rightwing nuts are. It's a lesson that one should not forget.
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 06:20 pm
@JTT,
Quote:

Flee, from a delusional character like you; perish the thought. I'm truly astounded to see just how delusional, just how ignorant you rightwing nuts are. It's a lesson that one should not forget.


You just disappeared after I called you out asking for proof. And you didn't come back until others picked up the same nonsense.

Glad to see you back, actually.

Just remember, opinions are awesome. But facts need proof. It is something everyone should be taught in college.

Heck, grade school.

Also, being delusional is wishing something is true, then subsequently mistaking it for being fact. You know, like the Big Lie? Repeat something often enough, and soon everyone believes it?

It seems to happen to you guys a lot here. I would suggest expanding your horizons a bit, maybe getting out a little more.

Seek diversity in your life, JT. Read a book, get some education. Really, it's a good thing...
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 06:25 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Also, being delusional is wishing something is true, then subsequently mistaking it for being fact. You know, like the Big Lie? Repeat something often enough, and soon everyone believes it?

Would that be similar to the claim that Bush has made the US safer? That seems to be repeated often while wishing it was true.
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 06:49 pm
@parados,
Quote:

Would that be similar to the claim that Bush has made the US safer? That seems to be repeated often while wishing it was true.


That's one history will have to decide, don't you think?

Unless you have deeper meaning behind your question?

In that there have been no successful Islamic attacks since 9-11? Or the way it has lulled the average citizen into allowing the government to do as they wish?

In some ways we have been safe. In some ways, I fear for our liberty, especially now...
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 06:52 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Also, being delusional is wishing something is true, then subsequently mistaking it for being fact. You know, like the Big Lie? Repeat something often enough, and soon everyone believes it?


I've somehow missed your postings where you excoriated Bush and the neocons for lying their way into an illegal invasion that has killed over a hundred thousand innocent Iraqis.

You don't have to tell me about the Big Lie. It has happened all too often to Americans. What truly puzzles me is how easily they are duped. Not idiots like Genoves, Okie, Foxy, etc, but smart folk like yourself, A Lone Voice.
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 07:27 pm
@JTT,
Quote:

I've somehow missed your postings where you excoriated Bush and the neocons for lying their way into an illegal invasion that has killed over a hundred thousand innocent Iraqis.

You don't have to tell me about the Big Lie. It has happened all too often to Americans. What truly puzzles me is how easily they are duped. Not idiots like Genoves, Okie, Foxy, etc, but smart folk like yourself, A Lone Voice.


Now where have you seen me going to the wall over Iraq?

We'll disagree about 'Bush Lied." There was quite the hue and cry from BOTH parties (and the UN) about Iraq's harboring WMDs, revisionist history by some politicians notwithstanding.

Bad intelligence, Rumsfield, a compliant media and compliant dems, the whole issue was a reactionary mess from a wounded nation.

But this whole "Bush Lied" nonsense is a case in point; show me where this has been proved beyond a doubt.

Please, no Daily Coz or DU conspiracies; I've seen them.

If the dems hold congressional hearings, and factual evidence comes out, I'm open to it. But they haven't, and they won't. And if they had it, don't you think they would trumpet it to the world at this point?

Bush was an idiot who was out of his depth. As I'm suspecting Obama might be, with what many economists are saying of his handling of the economy (especially the massive spending/entitlement bills that many say will result in runaway inflation in a couple years). But again, just my opinion.

But why do I believe I'll never hear anything ill about Obama from an A2K 'progressive' here, ever? Or, any criticism of the left in general? Heck, I asked about the silence from the anti-war left in another thread and you’d have thought I called you guys Nazis or something…

parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:31 pm
@A Lone Voice,
No successful attacks is your gauge for safety?

I suppose not falling off a ledge is your gauge for judging how safe it is to stand on it in a 50 mph wind.

More than one intelligence report has said we are not safer. Are we to not believe those that study it for a living but instead just wish it is true?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:38 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Under Clinton, after the first attack on the Twin Towers, there was no attack on USA soil for 8.5 years. And that was before a Homeland Security Dept. Wow, that Clinton deserves mucho credit.
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 01:31 am
A lone voice wrote:

Just remember, opinions are awesome. But facts need proof. It is something everyone should be taught in college.

A lone voice doesn't know that most of the liberals on these threads think that their unsourced opinions, devoid of any link to evidence or documentation, is enough to win an argument.

0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 01:51 am
@A Lone Voice,
Lone Voice- You are so lucky. You are on a thread which has people like Advocate who is obviously better informed about President Reagan than Presidential Historians. Advocate says President Reagan would have been impeached on Nicaragua if it had not been for his becoming senile.

Presidential Historians, alas, do not agree-

Note:


Lincoln ranked best president in C-SPAN poll of historians
Natasha T. Metzler ASSOCIATED PRESS
Monday, February 16, 2009

Just days after the nation honored the 200th anniversary of his birth, 65 historians ranked Abraham Lincoln as the nation's best president.

Former President George W. Bush, who left office last month, was ranked 36th out of the 42 men who had been chief executive by the end of 2008, according to a survey conducted by the cable channel C-SPAN.

Mr. Bush scored worst in international relations, where he was ranked 41st, and in economic management, where he was ranked 40th. His highest ranking, 24th, was in the category of pursuing equal justice for all. He was ranked 25th in crisis leadership and vision and agenda setting.

In contrast, Lincoln was ranked in the top three in each of the 10 categories evaluated by participants.

C-SPAN's only other ranking of presidents was in 2000. Former President Bill Clinton jumped six spots from No. 21 on that assessment to 15. Other recent presidents improved as well: Ronald Reagan advanced from No. 11 to 10, and George H.W. Bush rose from No. 20 to 18. But Jimmy Carter fell from No. 22 to 25.

*****************************************************************

But, Advocate may be a GENIUS, hidden from general view. Perhaps he can give a link to prove that Reagan would have been impeached for Nicaragua had he not been approaching senility.

I. like you, will not accept the ravings from morons like the Daily Kos or DU.

Perhaps Advocate can find a link. I have read exhaustively in the subject but have never found any evidence to show that the House or Senate Leadership were preparing to impeach Reagan.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 07:00 am
@genoves,
you really like that study of the presidents don't you

something tells me you spend your days jacking to a picture of margaret thatcher while presidential historians take turns reading their findings on the reagan presidency
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 09:49 am
@djjd62,
Genoves is trying to prove to himself that he has some knowledge. However, he had never heard of HUAC, much less the terrible damage it inflicted on innocent people. Also, he seems to not have heard of IranContra, a terrible chapter in the nation's history, which was under the aegis of Reagan.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 12:26 pm
@A Lone Voice,
What most people accuse the Bush administration is deceiving in not telling the whole truth rather than just stating false statements. In other words, they were just say Saddam has wmd as though it was an uncontested fact among all intelligence when that was not the case as subsequent reports have shown.

As far as congress, i have basically written them off a long time ago and I doubt Obama will do any looking back. I am disappointed in that and a host of other things. Nevertheless, there have been enough evidence to show that the administration did not add any qualifiers to their case for war when they were drumming for it. They also were guilty of sexing up the intelligence as well.

As just one example:
Quote:
Sept. 6, 2007 | On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam's inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.

Nor was the intelligence included in the National Intelligence Estimate of October 2002, which stated categorically that Iraq possessed WMD. No one in Congress was aware of the secret intelligence that Saddam had no WMD as the House of Representatives and the Senate voted, a week after the submission of the NIE, on the Authorization for Use of Military Force in Iraq. The information, moreover, was not circulated within the CIA among those agents involved in operations to prove whether Saddam had WMD.

On April 23, 2006, CBS's "60 Minutes" interviewed Tyler Drumheller, the former CIA chief of clandestine operations for Europe, who disclosed that the agency had received documentary intelligence from Naji Sabri, Saddam's foreign minister, that Saddam did not have WMD. "We continued to validate him the whole way through," said Drumheller. "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy."

Now two former senior CIA officers have confirmed Drumheller's account to me and provided the background to the story of how the information that might have stopped the invasion of Iraq was twisted in order to justify it. They described what Tenet said to Bush about the lack of WMD, and how Bush responded, and noted that Tenet never shared Sabri's intelligence with then Secretary of State Colin Powell. According to the former officers, the intelligence was also never shared with the senior military planning the invasion, which required U.S. soldiers to receive medical shots against the ill effects of WMD and to wear protective uniforms in the desert.

Instead, said the former officials, the information was distorted in a report written to fit the preconception that Saddam did have WMD programs. That false and restructured report was passed to Richard Dearlove, chief of the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6), who briefed Prime Minister Tony Blair on it as validation of the cause for war.



http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/

(There is a lot more in the source above.)

I think when a country is considering anything as serious as invading another country in war, all the intelligence should be presented, not just the evidence which augments the agenda for war.

I hear all the time about how many other people believed the same, but they were not presented with the new intelligence which the administration sought to build the case for war of any dissenting views so they were not wholly informed.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 01:22 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries#.22Sixteen_Words.22_controversy_in_2003_State_of_the_Union

Quote:
"Sixteen Words" controversy in 2003 State of the Union

In his January 2003 State of the Union speech, U.S. President George W. Bush said, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."[2] This single sentence, known now as the infamous "Sixteen Words,"[3] would become a crucial justification of the administration's decision to conduct an invasion of Iraq less than three months later.

The administration later conceded that evidence in support of the claim was inconclusive and stated, "These sixteen words should never have been included." The administration attributed the error to the CIA.[4] In mid-2003, the U.S. government declassified the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, which contained a dissenting opinion published by the U.S. Department of State stating that the intelligence connecting Niger to Saddam Hussein was "highly suspect," primarily because State Department's intelligence agency analysts did not believe that Niger would be likely to engage in such a transaction due to a French consortium which maintained close control over the Nigerien uranium industry. [5]

According to The Washington Post, when occupying troops found no evidence of a current nuclear program, the statement and how it came to be in the speech became a focus for critics in Washington and foreign capitals to press the case that the White House manipulated facts to take the United States to war. The Post reported, "Dozens of interviews with current and former intelligence officials and policymakers in the United States, Britain, France and Italy show that the Bush administration disregarded key information available at the time showing that the Iraq-Niger claim was highly questionable." [6] With the release of the 2002 NIE report, the Bush administration was criticized for including the statement in the State of the Union despite CIA and State Department reports questioning its veracity.


IMO, that's a pretty egregious mistake when you're talking about starting a fricking war.
 

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