5
   

Impending Nationalization of US Banks

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 06:07 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

There's probably a reason "nobody wants to buy the assets"...and the Govt shouldn't buy them either for the exact same reason. If the banks can't sell, then write them off as a loss....


Wow, you really don't get it.

They can't write those assets off as 'a loss,' they owe far more than they possibly could cover. You are basically saying they should close their doors immediately and fail. Our largest banks all failing at the same time, with their assets simply vanishing, would be much worse than a few years of nationalization.

Quote:
There are lots of banks that aren't failing


No, there are not. Not major ones anyway. And the smaller ones are dependent on the big ones to survive in our current climate.

Quote:
....and the deposits of us little guys are guaranteed up to $250K by the FDIC....


Haha, do you really believe this?

If the banks who are currently insolvent were allowed to fail, the FDIC could not cover 1/100th of the money invested. Do you just think they have a huge pile of gold somewhere, waiting for this to happen? They do not. Instead inflation would go through the roof and that would be Very Bad right now.

Quote:
so why does the bank get to hold a gun to our heads to bail them out by buying useless assets nobody in the right mind would buy?


You don't seem to understand that Nationalization of the banks is not 'bailing them out.' It's firing their leadership and seizing all their assets. The US government then owns those assets - which will not be worthless forever, the current liquidity freeze will thaw someday and those mortgages will have SOME value.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 06:40 pm
@hamburger,
Quote:

taking CITIGROUP as an example , they've managed to drop from $50 a share to $2.2o today


speculation is that Citi is a zombie bank, it which case that $2.20 a share is $2.20 more than it should be.
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 07:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawk wrote :

Quote:
speculation is that Citi is a zombie bank, it which case that $2.20 a share is $2.20 more than it should be


a/t CNBC commentators , for many banks the liabilities already exceed the (true) value of their assets .
many bank assets have apparently not been written down to market value .
it seems to me that they stay alive by "kiting cheques" .
hbg

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 07:20 pm
@hamburger,
Quote:
it seems to me that they stay alive by "kiting cheques"
Zombie= dead but APPEARS to be alive. Even if Citi is allowed to remain open what are they going to do? They have no assets that are not spoken for, thus they have no money to lend and will not for the forseeable future.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 08:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
it seems to me that they stay alive by "kiting cheques"
Zombie= dead but APPEARS to be alive. Even if Citi is allowed to remain open what are they going to do? They have no assets that are not spoken for, thus they have no money to lend and will not for the forseeable future.


Exactly correct. And we cannot in good conscience just throw them money to stay afloat, and I don't think it would work anyway. So. Why not take control instead of let the buildings crash down?

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 09:33 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Exactly correct. And we cannot in good conscience just throw them money to stay afloat, and I don't think it would work anyway. So. Why not take control instead of let the buildings crash down?


Take control AND rub out the stockholders and management that caused the death. Best case scenario we also press criminal charges.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 12:23 am
Quote:
Editorial
The Government and the Banks
February 21, 2009

Bank stocks plunged last week on fears that the government will have to take over battered institutions like Citigroup and Bank of America. That would wipe out the banks’ shareholders " hence, investors’ rush for the exits " and put the government in control of a swath of the financial system.


Americans have a visceral horror of the word nationalization. So call it restructuring or majority ownership. Or call it the taxpayers’ due after pouring in hundreds of billions of dollars in capital and guarantees and standing ready to pour in hundreds of billions more. We increasingly believe it is the least bad solution to a truly desperate situation.

Bank losses are mounting, leaving some institutions undercapitalized and " by credible calculations " insolvent. That is a disaster for taxpayers. They need the banks to function, and it is their money on the line to support banks that are too big to fail, like Citi and BofA.

Rescue measures have so far prevented a system-wide meltdown, but they have not reversed the downward slide or revived bank lending. That will not happen until investors have a firm grasp of the losses that everyone knows are on banks’ books " but that the banks are loath to acknowledge.

Done right, a takeover would be a once-and-for-all fix. The government would examine the banks’ holdings to get a realistic assessment of the toxic assets that are crippling the banks " and how much capital each bank needs, not only to survive but to begin lending again.

Institutions that are healthy enough to raise the needed capital from private investors would remain in shareholders’ hands. Those that are too weak would be taken over by the government and recapitalized with taxpayer money. The government would be in charge of restructuring those banks’ finances and operations. Current management would be fired " an appropriate end for executives whose failures have brought their companies and the country to this dark and dangerous point. Because taxpayers would be the owners, they would benefit from the gains to be had when the banks recover.

Critics will charge that government bureaucrats do not have the skills to pull this off. But the United States has a successful history of seizing insolvent banks through the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. The takeovers contemplated here are larger in scale and would be more complex than those that have generally fallen under the F.D.I.C.’s purview. But the notion that the government totally lacks the know-how to nationalize insolvent banks is not valid.

Safeguards must also be built into the process to curtail political meddling in lending and other decisions.

The aim is to clean up the banks efficiently, rather than allow the problems to become bigger, and then " as soon as possible " to sell the banks back to private investors. They will be smaller institutions. And there will be proper regulations in place to ensure that this catastrophe does not happen again.

Taking over big failed banks will be very difficult politically. But technically it could be easier than many of the elaborate rescues that have been tried and proposed.

On Friday, President Obama’s spokesman tried to calm the markets by reaffirming the administration’s preference for a sound privately owned banking system. We share that preference. But it looks as if the best way to get from here to there is for some of the banks to spend some time in the government’s hands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/opinion/22sun1.html
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 12:35 pm
Quote:
Nationalization would likely mean wiping out the big banks’ managements and shareholders. It’s because that reckoning has mostly been avoided so far that those bankers may be the Americans in the greatest denial of all. Wall Street’s last barons still seem to believe that they can hang on to their old culture by scuttling corporate jets, rejecting bonuses or sounding contrite in public. Ask the former Citigroup wise man Robert Rubin how that strategy worked out.

We are now waiting to learn if Obama’s economic team, much of it drawn from the Wonderful World of Citi and Goldman Sachs, will have the will to make its own former cohort face the truth. But at a certain point, as in every other turn of our culture of denial, outside events will force the recognition of harsh realities. Nationalization, unmentionable only yesterday, has entered common usage not least because an even scarier word " depression " is next on America’s list to avoid.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 12:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
china is being urged to keep U.S. afloat . hillary clinton to china : "keep buying our treasuries or we'll BOTH go down ! " .

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ahowJ.dThUNs&refer=home

Quote:
Clinton Urges China to Keep Buying Treasuries (Update3)

By Indira Lakshmanan

Feb. 22 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton urged China to continue buying Treasury bonds to help finance President Barack Obama’s stimulus plan.

The two nations’ economies are intertwined and it wouldn’t be in China’s interest if the U.S. were unable to sell its government debt, Clinton said in an interview with Shanghai’s Dragon Television today. China knows it needs a healthy American economy as its biggest export market, she said, adding that the U.S. must take “drastic measures” to stimulate growth.

“We are truly going to rise or fall together,” Clinton said. “By continuing to support American treasury instruments, the Chinese are recognizing” that interconnection.

China, the largest holder of U.S. government debt, boosted purchases by 46 percent last year to a record $696.2 billion as the global recession spurred demand for the securities. The Chinese government said last week it plans to keep buying Treasuries, adding that future purchases will depend on the preservation of their value and the safety of the investment.


seems to me that the chinese are in a bit of a bind (over the barrel ?) .
i imagine that they would prefer not to buy additional u.s. treasury bills - but they also want to keep their best customer alive .
decisions ... decisions ...
hbg
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 01:04 pm
@hamburger,
Quote:
seems to me that the chinese are in a bit of a bind (over the barrel ?) .
i imagine that they would prefer not to buy additional u.s. treasury bills - but they also want to keep their best customer alive .
decisions ... decisions ...
hbg


not really...until America accepts reality and deals with it (reforms) America is a bad investment. Except for US treasuries China has already mostly ended its financing, and I expect that it will soon pull back from treasury bonds as well. Then the **** will really hit the fan, when the credit card is turned off we will have to face that we can buy our way out of this mess.
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 01:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye :

i'm reasonably sure you didn't mean this :
Quote:
we will have to face that we can buy our way out of this mess.
.
or are you particularly charitable this sunday ? Wink
(try to enjoy the day - even though it's snowing here , we are making the best of it)
hbg
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 01:35 pm
@hamburger,
sorry....CAN'T
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2009 03:02 pm
Quote:
In Latest Plan for Banks, U.S. Could Demand a Voting Stake
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS

WASHINGTON " The Obama administration put the nation’s biggest banks on notice Monday that the government could become their biggest shareholder if regulators decide they are not strong enough to weather a deeper-than-expected downturn in the economy.

In an unexpectedly assertive joint statement, the Treasury Department, Federal Reserve and federal bank regulatory agencies announced that the government might end up demanding a direct ownership stake in major banks after they undergo a tough evaluation of their strength, which is to begin shortly.


Its'a coming, folks.

Cycloptichorn
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2009 03:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
In Latest Plan for Banks, U.S. Could Demand a Voting Stake
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS

WASHINGTON " The Obama administration put the nation’s biggest banks on notice Monday that the government could become their biggest shareholder if regulators decide they are not strong enough to weather a deeper-than-expected downturn in the economy.
Cycloptichorn


In other words, they expect it to be a deeper-than-expected downturn. I'm grateful we are in such good hands.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2009 03:13 pm
@roger,
What does that mean?

Cycloptichorn
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2009 03:29 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
They are expecting the unexpected. That's what they are saying. I'm not sure I know what that means, either, but I don't take it as a good omen.
0 Replies
 
 

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