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Impending Nationalization of US Banks

 
 
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 05:09 pm
I think it's only a matter of time now. All the economists seem to be recommending this, even Greenspan; that's the cover Obama needs to move forward.

Anyone have a subscription to FT? All I can get is the first few sentences of this article -

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2ad3b750-fd27-11dd-a103-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

Quote:
Bank nationalisation gains ground with Republicans

By Edward Luce and Krishna Guha

Published: February 17 2009 19:44 | Last updated: February 18 2009 21:57

Long regarded in the US as a folly of Europeans, nationalisation is gaining rapid acceptance among Washington opinion-formers " and not just with Alan Greenspan, former Federal Reserve chairman. Perhaps stranger still, many of those talking about nationalising banks are Republicans.

Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator for South Carolina, says that many of his colleagues, including John McCain, the defeated presidential candidate, agree with his view that nationalisation of some banks should be “on the table”.


Naturally, I think this is the best route to go down; mostly b/c those currently running our banks have proven themselves incompetent in doing so and need to be replaced, and this is the only way that will happen.

Cycloptichorn
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Type: Discussion • Score: 5 • Views: 2,354 • Replies: 35
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 06:38 pm
I am not one to take things at face value. If there were other reasons to nationalize banks, I would not be surprised. Perhaps, nationalization will prevent a hostile takeover by foreign clandestine interests? Would you not agree with that Holmes? Where was Moriarty last spotted??
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 11:53 pm
Damn socialists!
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 01:55 am
Quote:
Or should the government just say, "We're going to buy you up so we don't have to keep dumping money into you"?

There is this question of nationalization that keeps coming up. When the government actually owns these banks, it becomes responsible for all the liabilities of the banks. Supposing the government goes in and replaces the equity holders and says now these are government-owned banks. Then the government becomes responsible to all the debt holders who otherwise have made losses. In other words, with a nationalization, what you get is a transfer of wealth from the taxpayer to all the bondholders who earlier were dependent on the private bank to repay them. Now [they] can depend on the full faith and credit of the government to repay them.

Why do so many economists think we should do this now?

Well, I think some of it is driven by the sense that if we don't nationalize, then these equity holders in the banks are getting a free ride where the bank can be run with government protection " where the debt of the banks is insured, the equity holders get all the upside, the government gets nothing for it.

We've been talking about the banks as though they are a monolithic body. But in fact, there's a lot of variation in the health of one bank versus another. How do you tell which banks are worst off, which banks are doing pretty well and what the difference is?

This is a problem. We don't know, which is why the government has suggested that it will go in and do what it calls stress tests. You go in and you try and find out what is the value of the bank under the worst-case scenario. And then you decide whether it's worth saving by putting in more money, or whether it should be broken up and sold in pieces, or whether it should be merged with another bank. The real question that the government hasn't made any statements on, partly because this is a very sensitive question, is what will it do when it finds out that the bank actually is dead when it does these stress tests?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100786812&ft=1&f=1001
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 08:00 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm not aware that I have a subscription, but I could access the article, Cycloptichorn. Maybe they release it after a certain time. Here's the full text:
The Financial Times wrote:
Bank nationalisation gains ground with Republicans

By Edward Luce and Krishna Guha

Published: February 17 2009 19:44 | Last updated: February 18 2009 21:57

Long regarded in the US as a folly of Europeans, nationalisation is gaining rapid acceptance among Washington opinion-formers " and not just with Alan Greenspan, former Federal Reserve chairman. Perhaps stranger still, many of those talking about nationalising banks are Republicans.

Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator for South Carolina, says that many of his colleagues, including John McCain, the defeated presidential candidate, agree with his view that nationalisation of some banks should be “on the table”.

Mr Graham says that people across the US accept his argument that it is untenable to keep throwing good money after bad into institutions such as Citigroup and Bank of America, which now have a lower net value than the amount of public funds they have received.

“You should not get caught up on a word [nationalisation],” he told the Financial Times in an interview. “I would argue that we cannot be ideologically a little bit pregnant. It doesn’t matter what you call it, but we can’t keep on funding these zombie banks [without gaining public control]. That’s what the Japanese did.”

Barack Obama, the president, who has tried to avoid panicking lawmakers and markets by entertaining the idea, has moved more towards what he calls the “Swedish model” " an approach backed strongly by Mr Graham. In the early 1990s Sweden nationalised its banking sector then auctioned banks having cleaned up balance sheets. “In limited circumstances the Swedish model makes sense for the US,” says Mr Graham.

Mr Obama last weekend made clear he was leaning more towards the Swedish model than to the piecemeal approach taken in Japan, which many would argue is the direction US public policy appears to be heading.

“They [the Japanese] sort of papered things over,” Mr Obama said. “They never really bit the bullet . . . and so you never got credit flowing the way it should have, and the bad assets in their system just corroded the economy for a long period of time.”

Administration officials acknowledge that the rescue plan unveiled by Tim Geithner, Treasury secretary, last week could result in the temporary nationalisation of some weak banks.

The plan sets out a framework for revealing the extent of the likely credit losses facing banks. Most private sector analysts believe the exercise will reveal that some banks have large capital shortfalls.

Policymakers acknowledge that if this is indeed the case, it will be difficult for those with the largest shortfalls to raise the required equity from the markets, in which case the government would probably have to take temporary control. Moreover, while nationalisation remains taboo in some political circles it is increasingly openly discussed among past and present economic policymakers of all leanings.

“In this country nationalisation of some banks " not the whole banking sector " should be a last resort, but it should definitely now be on the table,” said David Walker, president of the Peterson Foundation and a former senior official in the George W. Bush administration.

The time for biting the bullet may also be fast approaching.

In early April, big institutions will publish their first-quarter results. If the intervening Treasury stress tests have not by then revealed the true state of their balance sheets, then their first-quarter results may do so.

“The first week in April " that’s when the children’s party is over,” says Chris Whalen, co-founder of Institutional Risk Analytics. “That is when the obvious will become apparent.”

The Obama administration remains opposed to federal control. Mr Geithner last week said: “Governments are terrible managers of bad assets.”

Others say he may eventually face no choice. “The danger we face is a Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae scenario where government gives the banking sector guarantees and then socialises the losses,” says Adam Posen, an economist. “That’s the worst thing we could do.”

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 11:01 am
I think the country is screwed. Am I wrong?

Here is a fabulous piece by a Nobel Prize winning economist.

Paul Krugman: Eventually you have to pay your debts
2/19/2009 6:35:02 AM

By now everyone knows the sad tale of Bernard Madoff's duped investors. They looked at their statements and thought they were rich. But then, one day, they discovered to their horror that their supposed wealth was a figment of someone else's imagination.

Unfortunately, that's a pretty good metaphor for what happened to America as a whole in the first decade of the 21st century.

Last week the Federal Reserve released the results of the latest Survey of Consumer Finances, a triennial report on the assets and liabilities of American households. The bottom line is that there has been basically no wealth creation at all since the turn of the millennium: the net worth of the average American household, adjusted for inflation, is lower now than it was in 2001.

At one level this should come as no surprise. For most of the last decade America was a nation of borrowers and spenders, not savers. The personal savings rate dropped from 9 percent in the 1980s to 5 percent in the 1990s, to just 0.6 percent from 2005 to 2007, and household debt grew much faster than personal income. Why should we have expected our net worth to go up?

Yet until very recently Americans believed they were getting richer, because they received statements saying that their houses and stock portfolios were appreciating in value faster than their debts were increasing. And if the belief of many Americans that they could count on capital gains forever sounds naive, it's worth remembering just how many influential voices -- notably in right-leaning publications like The Wall Street Journal, Forbes and National Review -- promoted that belief, and ridiculed those who worried about low savings and high levels of debt.

Then reality struck, and it turned out that the worriers had been right all along. The surge in asset values had been an illusion -- but the surge in debt had been all too real.

So now we're in trouble -- deeper trouble, I think, than most people realize even now. And I'm not just talking about the dwindling band of forecasters who still insist that the economy will snap back any day now.

For this is a broad-based mess. Everyone talks about the problems of the banks, which are indeed in even worse shape than the rest of the system. But the banks aren't the only players with too much debt and too few assets; the same description applies to the private sector as a whole.

And as the great American economist Irving Fisher pointed out in the1930s, the things people and companies do when they realize they have too much debt tend to be self-defeating when everyone tries to do them at the same time. Attempts to sell assets and pay off debt deepen the plunge in asset prices, further reducing net worth. Attempts to save more translate into a collapse of consumer demand, deepening the economic slump.

Are policymakers ready to do what it takes to break this vicious circle? In principle, yes. Government officials understand the issue: We need to "contain what is a very damaging and potentially deflationary spiral," says Lawrence Summers, a top Obama economic adviser.

In practice, however, the policies currently on offer don't look adequate to the challenge. The fiscal stimulus plan, while it will certainly help, probably won't do more than mitigate the economic side effects of debt deflation. And the much-awaited announcement of the bank rescue plan left everyone confused rather than reassured.

There's hope that the bank rescue will eventually turn into something stronger. It has been interesting to watch the idea of temporary bank nationalization move from the fringe to mainstream acceptance, with even Republicans like Sen. Lindsey Graham conceding that it may be necessary. But even if we eventually do what's needed on the bank front, that will solve only part of the problem.

If you want to see what it really takes to boot the economy out of a debt trap, look at the large public works program, otherwise known as World War II, that ended the Great Depression. The war didn't just lead to full employment. It also led to rapidly rising incomes and substantial inflation, all with virtually no borrowing by the private sector. By 1945 the government's debt had soared, but the ratio of private-sector debt to GDP was only half what it had been in 1940. And this low level of private debt helped set the stage for the great postwar boom.

Since nothing like that is on the table, or seems likely to get on the table any time soon, it will take years for families and firms to work off the debt they ran up so blithely. The odds are that the legacy of our time of illusion -- our decade at Bernie's -- will be a long, painful slump.

Paul Krugman, winner of the 2008 Nobel Prize for Economics, is a professor at Princeton University and a columnist for the New York Times.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 11:21 am
This is interesting to me because i was listenting to German radio English service, Deutche Welle Radio, and they were talking about nationalizing a German bank, Hypo Real Estate. The bank, located in Munich, was said to set to become another Lehmann Brothers.

Click here to read DW World's report on the HRE bank.

Thomas, weren't you from Munich?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:01 pm
Quote:

Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) believes that failed "zombie" banks, no matter what their size, should be taken over by the government, which should then wipe out shareholders, fire management, clean up the banks and quickly resell them into the marketplace. Such a move, he cautioned, should come only if the "stress tests" being conducted by Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner determine a bank to be insolvent.


Those 'stress tests' will show exactly that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/20/schumer-failed-zombie-ban_n_168625.html

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
White House tries to end bank nationalization talk

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/obama_banks

Quote:
WASHINGTON " The White House on Friday insisted it's not trying to take over two ailing financial institutions, even as stocks tumbled again. On Wall Street, talk of nationalization of Citigroup Inc., and Bank of America Corp., prompted investors to continue to balk, worried that the government would have to take control and wipe out shareholders in the process.

Citigroup fell 20 percent, while Bank of America fell 12 percent in afternoon trading but also came off their lowest levels.

"This administration continues to strongly believe that a privately held banking system is the correct way to go, ensuring that they are regulated sufficiently by this government," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said when asked about nationalizing the banks.

"That's been our belief for quite some time, and we continue to have that," Gibbs said.

Investors have shown decreasing confidence that U.S. banks can right themselves. Citigroup and Bank of America have already received significant help from taxpayers as the government has rushed in to try to save the financial sector, which has been choked by bad assets and seen the flow of credit shrink.

The speculation about the two banks' future continued to take a direct toll on the market.

Gibbs was pressed for more details on his answer " specifically whether Obama would not nationalize banks. He said it was hard for him to be any clearer.

When a reporter suggested Gibbs could do that by saying point bank that Obama would never nationalize banks, Gibbs would not make that statement, but emphasized: "I think I was very clear about the system that this country has and will continue to have."


Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:21 pm
@maporsche,
They just don't want a panic on Wall Street. They will keep saying they don't want to do it right up until the second they DO do it. Which makes sense if you think about it.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
It doesn't really matter, once it DOES happen, Wall Street will panic like you've never seen.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:31 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

It doesn't really matter, once it DOES happen, Wall Street will panic like you've never seen.


If by 'panic' you mean 'forced to face reality,' I agree. These companies are already basically wards of the state. We'll just be formalizing it.

Lots of rumors out there today that Citi and BofA could be nationalized within just a few weeks.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:39 pm
Perhaps someone could explain to me why we don't just let these poorly run banks go into bankruptcy/failure? Is there something special about banks?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:41 pm
@slkshock7,
Great question slkshock....I'm beginning to think that every business in the country is too big to fail.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:55 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote :

Quote:
It doesn't really matter, once it DOES happen, Wall Street will panic like you've never seen.


taking CITIGROUP as an example , they've managed to drop from $50 a share to $2.2o today .
it's like someone falling off a 50 story building and just approaching the second story saying : "NOW the panic will start" .
plenty of banks have already thrown themselves off of the top of their skyscrapers . doubt that there is much left for a panic - it's already there .

why not call in the army and let them take over , better than sending the army to afghanistan .
but who knows , perhaps it'll become more dangerous in the U.S. than in afghanistan .
hbg

CITIGROUP :
http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/data/stock?id=C-N&pi_sponsor=
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:56 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

Perhaps someone could explain to me why we don't just let these poorly run banks go into bankruptcy/failure? Is there something special about banks?


That's what nationalization is - allowing the banks to fail and picking up the pieces. The bond and shareholders will be wiped out and essentially the gov't will buy the assets which nobody else wants.

Restructure, revamp, sell back to private interests in a few years.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 04:59 pm
@hamburger,
I guess we'll see hamburger.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 05:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
National Government certainly doesn't get involved everytime some business fails...Instead a judge steps in, assists the company to divest itself of bad assets, reorganize as necessary, and the company either disappears, or starts anew (without the dead baggage). Why must the US "buy the assets nobody wants"? Allow the bank to sell them for whatever they can get under the supervision of a bankruptcy judge...

Restructure, revamp, under a judge's supervision and if appropriate, put back into private interest as soon as possible. No need for Govt to buy anything....
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 05:36 pm
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

National Government certainly doesn't get involved everytime some business fails...Instead a judge steps in, assists the company to divest itself of bad assets, reorganize as necessary, and the company either disappears, or starts anew (without the dead baggage). Why must the US "buy the assets nobody wants"? Allow the bank to sell them for whatever they can get under the supervision of a bankruptcy judge...

Restructure, revamp, under a judge's supervision and if appropriate, put back into private interest as soon as possible. No need for Govt to buy anything....


Because nobody wants to buy the assets, silk. That's the whole problem. If the assets they had were liquid enough to sell, they wouldn't be failing. But they aren't; the companies are failing; and we really won't have any other choice. This goes far beyond some judge ordering an auction for a restaurant that went out of business or something similar... it's a systemic problem which will require extraordinary solutions.

See the RTC, created to deal with the S&L crisis in the 80's, exact same thing.

Cycloptichorn
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 05:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
There's probably a reason "nobody wants to buy the assets"...and the Govt shouldn't buy them either for the exact same reason. If the banks can't sell, then write them off as a loss....

There are lots of banks that aren't failing....and the deposits of us little guys are guaranteed up to $250K by the FDIC....so why does the bank get to hold a gun to our heads to bail them out by buying useless assets nobody in the right mind would buy?
 

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