U.S. Taxpayers Risk $9.7 Trillion on Bailouts as Senate Votes

@Woiyo9,

Quote:

Once again, Frank, take the challenge and tell us WHY YOU feel the US Congress, as a body, should be applauded for the efforts over the past 5 years?

You real good with sarcasm, but very lame on providing you opinion.

You are the one who is sure they could be doing better; you are the one who obviously has a much better plan.

All I am doing is noting now very much better our country and the world would be if only you were in charge!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

We need chumps like you in this country, Frank.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

My conclusions are based on long experience that spending money that you don't have for things that you don't absolutely have to have results in grief. My conclusions are based on a hard held belief that no person, no organization, no entity, no nation can spend itself rich. The only reliable method by which to become rich is a) to take it from and thereby impoverish others or b) create wealth.

My conclusions are backed up by the opinion of the CBO and dozens of experts who have analyzed the stimulus package as it has been advertised and I have posted several of these elsewhere during the various discussions of this issue.

The CBO is much more circumspect in their analysis of the bill than you were with your grand predictions of catastrophe.

Normally I agree with homespun common sense in how to run even large economies, but in this case we're looking at a broken economic system which needs some form of action to keep things from getting markedly worse. I'm not comforted by simple restatements of basic economics because I don't think any of us would like to see a massive global depression, which is what it would to deflate the bubble in a ruthless fashion (by simply letting fundamentals take hold and letting economic forces correct things by attrition).

Quote:

Obama also addressed a broader argument -- that the government should not be trying to fix the problem.

"You have some people, very sincere, who philosophically just think the government has no business interfering in the marketplace. And, in fact, there are several who've suggested that FDR was wrong to interfere back in the New Deal. They're fighting battles that I thought were resolved a pretty long time ago," he said.

The president said most economists "almost unanimously" recognize the government needs to play a role in jump-starting the economy.

Obama said he was "absolutely confident" the country's economic problems can be solved, "but it's going to require us to take some significant, important steps."

Obama pointed to Japan to back up his claim that without action, the recession could become permanent.

"We saw this happen in Japan in the 1990s, where they did not act boldly and swiftly enough and, as a consequence, they suffered what was called the lost decade, where essentially, for the entire '90s, they did not see any significant economic growth."

1 Reply

@Woiyo9,

I never thought that I would be saying this about Bush but I am already missing the “Politics of Fear”.

This “Politics of Hope and Change” with its “catastrophes”, “disasters” and “Armageddons” is scaring the daylights outta me!

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@BigTexN,

Ironic, isn't it.

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@BigTexN,

Poor little fella. Don't be afraid. It'll be okay.

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@rosborne979,

Did I use the word catastrophe? That's President Obama and his surrogates' word to scare everybody to death so they'll go along with whatever the President and Congress wants to do. His inaugeral message of hope instead of fear went out the window really quick. I don't know what you meant by the CBO being more circumspect that me, but their analysis was that we will be better off in the long haul if Congress does nothing re a stimulus package than if they do the one proposed.

I can appreciate Obama supporters wanting their candidate of choice to succeed and being willing to give him every benefit of the doubt. I would like to see him succeed too because his success will be good for me along with everybody else. But I can't see this as the way to go about it.

Nor have I at any time suggested that Congress needs to do nothing at all and yes, we need to take important steps. But we are in deep recession right now. Larding a spending bill with a myriad of projects that we don't HAVE to do right now and that creates mostly government jobs is irresponsible.

If we are going to be circumspect, how would it be irresponsible to say that every dollar of debt authorized in the spending bill must produce incentive or ability to create a private sector job? That helps the economy, the individual, and the state and federal coffers. After the economy improves and the money is flowing into the treasury again, THEN we can look at some of the other stuff that needs to be done.

Is that too much to ask?

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Did I use the word catastrophe?

Foxfyre wrote:

what our Congress is about to do to us is unprecedented, it is irresponsible, it is destructive, and every responsible American patriot regardless of their political affiliation or ideology should be saying NO.

Close enough.

Foxfyre wrote:

If we are going to be circumspect, how would it be irresponsible to say that every dollar of debt authorized in the spending bill must produce incentive or ability to create a private sector job? That helps the economy, the individual, and the state and federal coffers.

Everyone wants those things Fox. The democrats don't sit around and ask themselves how they can grab some pork and screw up the economy even worse. They believe what they are suggesting will be good over all. You just disagree with their methods.

My original post to this thread was, who do we trust to build an effective solution? Is it the CBO? Is it the Dems, is it the Repubs? Is it you or me?

Who do we trust to build the correct solution?

1 Reply

Is it too much to ask you people to finally recognize that...

YOU LOST!

Big time, as a matter of fact.

Your theories got us into this mess.

Now we, the American people, are asking someone else to pull us out.

Please excuse us if we are not anxious to embrace the ideas of the agenda that got us into it.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Your theories got us into this mess.

What theory is that?

The theory that a lender would loan money to non credit worthy consumers at the insistence of Fannie and Freddie?

The theory that the govt would not provide any oversight to predatory lenders?

The theory that US Automakers made bad deals with their unions and force them to the brink of bankruptcy?

A SEC that can not find the biggest fraud ever, which occurred over a 30+ year period?

Which one exactly is "our" fault, Frank?

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@Frank Apisa,

I disagree somewhat Frank. There theories were never implemented in reality. There never was any fiscal discipline in Bush's administration. There never was any slimming of the government.

I can't think of many economic theories the Republicans claim to have that they actually worked on implementing.

In my eyes, THAT is the real problem here. Deficit spending (which Democrats complained about repeatedly here and in congress) is the cause of this current problem. The solution to this problem cannot be MORE deficit spending. You don't fix a debt problem by taking on more debt.

No one in the congress, or here on this site, is looking at the long term health of the country. No one cares that we are talking about increasing the national debt by 20% in 2 years. Sure, we might fix something for the next 2 years, but we will be compounding problems like SS, Medicare, and Medicade by borrowing our way out of this problem.

We need a recession to reset our nation's addiction to debt and cheap consumer goods. For the long term good of the country we need to let consumer demand fall naturally. I know you're in your twilight years Frank and may not be too concerned about the country 10/20/30/50 years from now, but I'm not, and I am concerned about MY future. The future that your generation feels is worth stealing from.

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@maporsche,

You're right maporsche...a bunch of RINOs in the White House should not be used to reflect true Conservatism.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Did I use the word catastrophe?

Foxfyre wrote:
what our Congress is about to do to us is unprecedented, it is irresponsible, it is destructive, and every responsible American patriot regardless of their political affiliation or ideology should be saying NO.

Close enough.

No it is not close enough. What the President and his surrogates are saying is that doing more irresponsible spending on top of what has already been done will produce different results. Some want to dump all this on the Republicans but that simply won't wash however irresponsible President Bush and the GOP might have been. No Democrats voted against the money the GOP wanted to spend when the GOP was in charge and a lot voted against any reductions in spending the GOP proposed and/or complained that not enough was being spent on this or that. Was the GOP irresponsible? Yes it was. Have the Democrats been irresponsible? Yes they have.

We can try to make ourselves feel better by pointing fingers at the other guy and saying it was all his/their fault and our guy is pure as the driven snow and above reproach, but that too is irresponsible as well as major stupid.

You don't put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it which is how many of us are seeing this huge spending bill.

Quote:

Foxfyre wrote:
If we are going to be circumspect, how would it be irresponsible to say that every dollar of debt authorized in the spending bill must produce incentive or ability to create a private sector job? That helps the economy, the individual, and the state and federal coffers.

Everyone wants those things Fox. The democrats don't sit around and ask themselves how they can grab some pork and screw up the economy even worse. They believe what they are suggesting will be good over all. You just disagree with their methods.

My original post to this thread was, who do we trust to build an effective solution? Is it the CBO? Is it the Dems, is it the Repubs? Is it you or me?

Who do we trust to build the correct solution?

You and I--the American people--are the only ones who CAN fix it. What we need from the government is policy and initiatives that will allow us to do it. I am not opposed to the government taking steps and doing what the private sector cannot do to fix the problem such as underwriting toxic mortages in a responsible way that frees up credit and gives us the best shot at recouping our losses. And that has to be done in a way that ensures that we won't simply acquire more toxic debt that will re-create the problem and have to be addressed later on.

But just as I and mine are waiting until we have our savings account built up a bit more to do some necessary maintenance/improvements on our house, the government can wait on pet projects that are not of great urgency at this time and should be directing all resources toward getting the private sector economy healthy again. Once the money is flowing into federal and state treasuries again, Elkhart, Indiana can fix its own potholes.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

We need a recession to reset our nation's addiction to debt and cheap consumer goods. For the long term good of the country we need to let consumer demand fall naturally.

How do you see that playing out? How long will it take? How many companies go under? How high does unemployment go? How many banks fail? How many people become homeless? How many schools, roads, bridges, and dams crumble?

Please explain how that works for me.

1 Reply

@BigTexN,

I am right....but you 'True Conservatives' are the one's who keep electing these bozo's.

You've made your bed, hope you're ready to sleep in it. And I hope the country can take what's coming because of your team's failures.

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I'm just curious. How many people on this thread have actually written to their congress people as much as they have posted on various threads?

Who is my congressman?

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@squinney,

It will play out pretty rough, no doubt about that, but it needs to happen. We are a country of drug addicts and we need to quit cold turkey and take the lumps that come with it.

Does anyone really think that an economy can just grow, and grow, and grow, and grow based on borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and NOT have problems with that plan at some point? Please someone tell me that they believe this!

I never said not to spend money on schools, roads, bridges, dams, etc. These are ideas that I can get behind. It's the massive tax cuts so that people can spend buy an extra tank of gas, or an extra pair of shoes that I have a problem with.

Let every bank fail who needs to fail. At some point the economy will reach an equilbrium. If 30% of the banks need to fail because of that, then so be it.

I have no idea how long it will take, but it will take as long as it needs too. Actually it won't, because none of our government has the balls to do what is needed to actually solve this problem. What Obama is proposing is MORE OF THE SAME that got us here in the first place, starting way back with Reagan.

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@rosborne979,

I have telephoned, emailed, and snail mailed all five of our Congressmen and Senators from New Mexico and telegrammed by own congressman. All five so far are voting with the President, but hope springs eternal.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

How many people on this thread have actually written to their congress people as much as they have posted on various threads?

I have had the opportunity through local organizations to have brerakfast or dinner with my congressman at least once every 2 months. And I make sure to listen and give my own personal feedback.

Add in emails and phones calls...

But, unfortunately, it is difficult to get regular responses from congressmen the way we can on these various threads...so the number of interactions is dramatically limited.

At least here we don't get "Form letter" responses.

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The silliest thing is the continuous argument that 'they' got us into this mess so we're justified in doing what 'they' did, and if we do what 'they' did, that will get us out of the mess. The gods surely must be laughing.

1 Reply

U.S. Taxpayers Risk $9.7 Trillion on Bailouts as Senate Votes

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