11
   

They always look like they think they are going for a walk happy... Until they get to "The Room"

 
 
patiodog
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 01:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
No one has suggested that the United States should employ the strategy being used in India on feral dogs to manage stray dogs domestically. They are two distinct problems, and so should be addressed with distinct strategies.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 02:02 pm
@patiodog,
You yourself said that Madison is using sterilize and release, and if you are in the biz then you know that American communities are increasingly trying it. This after no kill animal shelters, the last great idea, proved to be such a disaster.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 02:36 pm
Quote:
MUMBAI - US actress Pamela Anderson has appealed to the authorities in India's financial capital Mumbai not to put down nuisance stray dogs, instead calling for them to be sterilized.

"It is well established that killing stray dogs is not a permanent solution to controlling their populations," the former "Baywatch" star said in a letter to the municipal commission of Greater Mumbai.

"Dogs cannot use condoms, but with the municipality's help, they can be 'fixed' -- painlessly, quickly and permanently," she added in the letter made public by activist group the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA).

There are thought to be some 70,000 stray dogs in India's financial and entertainment capital and there are widespread concerns about their role in spreading disease, including deadly rabies.

Anderson's letter, which cited World Health Organization and Animal Health Board of India support for mass sterilization, comes after a legal ruling here to destroy nuisance dogs.

Expressing her concern at the court decision, the 41-year-old star called instead for civic authorities to promote a sterilisation program for stray dogs as well as those adopted and bought from animal shelters and pet shops.

Anderson's stance was supported by the Mumbai-based charity Welfare of Stray Dogs, which has been carrying out mass sterilization of stray dogs since 1989.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/entertainment/01/16/09/dogs-dont-wear-condoms-says-baywatch-star-anderson

twenty years into the program it does not appear to be working to limit populations very well.
Quote:
India has so many dogs roaming its streets because of its high numbers of slum and street dwellers, who often keep the animals as pets, plus a large amount of garbage, which provides readily accessible food for scavenging mutts


I don't see resources being a problem in America, given that we have so much food, and so many people who are predisposed to feed strays. Hell, we even feed the pigeons. There is no reasonable basis to expect that sterilize and release would work in America on limiting resources principles.

Interesting piece that concludes that neither sterilize and release nor kill will work, that the answer is to encourage the sterilization of all pet dogs.
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:koDVBNzg5t8J:www.almitrapatel.com/docs/101.doc+america+stray+dog+sterilization+effectiveness&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=23&gl=us
patiodog
 
  3  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 02:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
I couldn't agree more about no-kill shelters. What you are failing to understand is the difference between stray animals and feral animal populations. Trap and kill has been tried with feral cat colonies, and the numbers of animals from generation to generation simply do not come down. We use sterilize and release for ferals brought to us from neighboring counties (it is illegal for us to release in Dane County). These animals are trapped and brought in by the people who own the land that they live on, and it is how these individuals are choosing to manage their populations. We -- and nor does any other shelter -- sterilize and release animals who come to us as strays. These animals are held for a legally mandated 7-day period per our contract with the county, and then are adopted out or euthanized. Understand that there are three distinct populations of cats in our area -- feral cats, barn cats, and pets. Feral cats that are brought to us as strays -- that is, they are not brought in by people who own the land that the cats live on -- generally are euthanized or are transferred to a local rescue that rehabilitates feral cats and adopts them out to homes as pets when they have been properly socialized.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 02:41 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I don't see resources being a problem in America, given that we have so much food, and so many people who are predisposed to feed strays. Hell, we even feed the pigeons. There is no reasonable basis to expect that sterilize and release would work in America on limiting resources principles.

Interesting piece that concludes that neither sterilize and release nor kill will work, that the answer is to encourage the sterilization of all pet dogs.


Thank you for trying to catch up here. Killing even in large numbers does not significantly reduce the numbers of unwanted animals. However, sterilization of PET dogs and cats does nothing to reduce the numbers of animals in FERAL dog and cat populations, either, for the simple reason that they are different populations.

Resources are limiting because space is a resource. A certain amount of space is required for a bitch or queen to raise a litter. Space that is occupied by a sterilized animal is not available to be occupied by a fertile animal.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 03:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I don't see resources being a problem in America, given that we have so much food, and so many people who are predisposed to feed strays.


If you'd bothered to read the article you disputed you would have noted that it's not how much food the humans have so much as how much trash they leave exposed.

In America a feral dog population wouldn't survive because of the lack of exposed trash.

Quote:
twenty years into the program it does not appear to be working to limit populations very well.
Quote:
India has so many dogs roaming its streets because of its high numbers of slum and street dwellers, who often keep the animals as pets, plus a large amount of garbage, which provides readily accessible food for scavenging mutts


As long as there's exposed trash, a stray population of dogs can and will exist. The article explains that they've had more success with sterilization than killing their strays. Anecdotal evidence of a large population of strays in India doesn't mean their strategy is wrong, they can't eliminate strays. They can only hope to stabilize the population an reverse it's growth.

The articles you disputed claimed that they have seen more success in doing so through the sterilization program. Since you have disputed their viewpoint how about substantiating yours with a real argument? You've tried an ad hominem, a straw man and now some anecdotal evidence that only says there is a large population of strays in India.

But none of that does anything to refute their claims that sterilization is a better way to control and limit the stray population. So what exactly is your beef with what they said? It sounds like you didn't even bother to read it.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 09:57 am
Funny - just yesterday I was talking to my 10 year old about animal shelters. She didn't realize that they kill these animals after a period of time if they are not adopted. Maybe a big mistake for me as she is now determined to go to every shelter and save these dogs. She was horrified.

I have adopted my cats from a no-kill shelter. Many of these are privately run and they take excellent care of the animals when they come in. In order to adopt from them you must give references and show proof you own your property and/or your landlord will allow pets. You must sign an agreement to have the animal fixed (they also have a lists of vets that will do this for free if you adopt from them). They will give you the history of the animal, plus what sort of family the animal is suited for.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 08:26 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
The articles you disputed claimed that they have seen more success in doing so through the sterilization program. Since you have disputed their viewpoint how about substantiating yours with a real argument? You've tried an ad hominem, a straw man and now some anecdotal evidence that only says there is a large population of strays in India.

But none of that does anything to refute their claims that sterilization is a better way to control and limit the stray population. So what exactly is your beef with what they said? It sounds like you didn't even bother to read it


I used the last link of my last post to refute the claims of sterilization and release effectiveness. Give it a read if you want, but don't make the false claim that i have offered no evidence. I have also made the claim that we get more bang for our buck with kill, as it requires catching only once and no release, where as sterilization and release requires multiple catches and releases if rabies is to be controlled, as well as a disposal run after they die in the streets. I also claim that a shot of poison is cheaper than sterilization, which I will not take the time to prove because it seems self evident, however if you want to dispute the claim....
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 08:31 pm
@patiodog,
Quote:
Resources are limiting because space is a resource. A certain amount of space is required for a bitch or queen to raise a litter. Space that is occupied by a sterilized animal is not available to be occupied by a fertile animal.


if space is an issue than we have a huge number of animals on the streets, if we get to that point we have already lost. I want to maintain the population of dogs without homes at levels so far below where space is an issue that it never occured to me that anyone here would be willing to tolerate what you propose.
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 08:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
First of all, we're not talking about the same solution everywhere. They've tried "kill" in Mumbai for a 100 years, and it hasn't work. It's worth trying something different even if it doesn't work. If you think I am advocating the same approach for stray animals in the United States you're ******* retarded.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 08:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I used the last link of my last post to refute the claims of sterilization and release effectiveness.


That's odd, cause here's what your link has to say about that:

The author of the article you posted wrote:
Rabies prevention is effectively achieved only by vaccination.


Quote:
Give it a read if you want, but don't make the false claim that i have offered no evidence.


I did read it, you didn't. The article you were disputing advocated neuter/vaccination and the article you claim refutes this is just saying that India needs to emphasize the vaccination even more and needs the help of its pet owners to solve the problem, and it just doesn't say anything against the strategy that you were disputing.

Quote:
I have also made the claim that we get more bang for our buck with kill, as it requires catching only once and no release, where as sterilization and release requires multiple catches and releases if rabies is to be controlled, as well as a disposal run after they die in the streets. I also claim that a shot of poison is cheaper than sterilization, which I will not take the time to prove because it seems self evident, however if you want to dispute the claim....


Well here's an excerpt from the very article you posted, claiming it as evidence against the no-kill strategy.

The author of the article you posted wrote:
Killing/elimination as a singular control method is also ineffective in controlling dog populations precisely because of the large numbers of community-owned dogs that are able to avoid capture. Permanent removal of a poorly breeding segment of the dog population and/or neutering of this segment will have little success in controlling dog-populations in the long-term. A more complex reason killing is not recommending as a sole control method concerns the ecology of dog populations. The WHO states,
The density of a population of higher vertebrates (including dogs) is almost always near the carrying capacity of the environment. Any reduction in population density through additional mortality is rapidly compensated by better reproduction and survival. In other words, when dogs are removed, the survivors’ life expectancy increases because they have better access to resources and there is less competition for resources.
It is important to note that the WHO/WSPA recommends the elimination of unwanted (feral) dogs for zoonotic disease control (more than 100 diseases, including rabies can be spread from dogs to humans) and not as a critical factor in dog population control.


Read your own evidence Hawkeye. You typed "america stray dog sterilization effectiveness" into google, barely scanned the article (probably just enough to make sure it was, in fact, about dogs) and posted it as your "evidence" while it is advocating the same strategies you are arguing against.
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 08:42 pm
@Robert Gentel,
And I'll quote RG quoting a source, because it says it much more eloquently than I have...

Quote:
The density of a population of higher vertebrates (including dogs) is almost always near the carrying capacity of the environment. Any reduction in population density through additional mortality is rapidly compensated by better reproduction and survival. In other words, when dogs are removed, the survivors’ life expectancy increases because they have better access to resources and there is less competition for resources.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 10:10 pm
@patiodog,
Ya know...that's absolutely bleeding obvious when you think of it.

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2009 11:36 pm
Still following,

and the thread title still gets me.
0 Replies
 
Lambchop
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:19 am
@Linkat,
Quote:
I have adopted my cats from a no-kill shelter. Many of these are privately run and they take excellent care of the animals when they come in. In order to adopt from them you must give references and show proof you own your property and/or your landlord will allow pets. You must sign an agreement to have the animal fixed (they also have a lists of vets that will do this for free if you adopt from them). They will give you the history of the animal, plus what sort of family the animal is suited for.


That's what they do at the SPCA where I volunteer. Except the animals are already spayed/neutered before they are put up for adoption, so that's already been taken care of.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 11:36 am
Heartbreaking.

My older cat was born to a stray my parents adopted (just started coming around the house and we fed it) and my younger cat (8 months old) was rescued from a dumpster in Oakland. So I guess I'm karmic positive at the moment.

One day I'll have to put my older cat to sleep, and I think I just may die myself a little on that day.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:04 pm
@Lambchop,
Do they "kill" the animals if they are not adopted within a certain amount of time?
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:14 pm
@Linkat,
Not all shelters do, Linkat. We have one out here "Helen Woodward Animal Shelter" that keeps the animals indefinitely. It's a huge private compound donated by Helen Woodward for the animals and yearly fundraisers help to
financially care for all the critters there.

They also have a "Club Pet" where pets can be boarded during vacation time,
and the proceeds from Club Pet also benefit the animal shelter.

There are really good shelters out there.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:23 pm
@CalamityJane,
I know several too. They tend to be the privately operated ones. Are there any they are city/region/public that do not kill?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 12:45 pm
I am afraid most public shelters do euthanize the animals.
 

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