63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
djjd62
 
  2  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
but it doesn't look as good on CNN, if it bleeds, it leads
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:14 am
@djjd62,
Yes, we've seen what the Jews did in Gaza, killing children, and their attack on the ship that was bringing supplies to the people in Gaza.

The Pals are justifiably tired of the Jews taking their lands with no legal recourse, and that frustration turns into violence.

I understand that completely!
Advocate
 
  2  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 01:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Advocate, You "people" love to call those who disagree with the land take-over from the Pals by the Jews as anti-Semite. You're wrong in every way; I am not an anti-Semite. I have worked for Florsheim Shoe Company, and they have promoted me to a management position in the company that eventually allowed me to work in management for the rest of my working career after I left Florsheim.

I've had several Jewish bosses who have treated me fair, and they also "promoted" me into higher levels of management.

So, you don't know what you are talking about from the get-go. I have visited Israel, and had the opportunity to talk to both Jews and a Palestinian woman who spent a couple of hours talking to us. Her family has lived in Palestine for many generations, and she lives in the old city where their family owns two homes - which is unusual. Our Tour Director, Gilad Peled, from Jerusalem also told us about his thinking and feelings about living in Israel, but mostly worry about his young family - his wife and baby. We also had the opportunity to eat at a Palestinian restaurant in Haifa where the service was wonderful, and a patron talked to us.

Your label of anti-Semite only cheapens it when you use with without understanding who you use it against.

I also know that many Jews are against the occupation of Palestinian lands. If they are anti-Semites, I will wear that label with pride.




First, the conversations you had with a few people are anectdotal and, therefore, worthless in proving anything. Second, you conveniently forget your past statements that Jews in general have a tendency to take the property of others. That is an anti-Semitic (and false) statement. (I know you are now going to (dishonestly) deny you said this and demand I produce proof of it. I will not waste my time doing this.) The fact that you worked for Jews who treated you well means nothing in this matter.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 01:32 pm
@Advocate,
It shows further ignorance of human relationships of our lives. Not only did I work for a Jewish company, Florsheim, but have worked at other companies with Jewish bosses. I also have Jewish friends. Why in the world would I be anti-semitic? In some circles, we provide evidence of something through anecdotal expressions. Unless you can prove them to be false, you are chasing fart wind.

You have misrepresented what I said: I said that Jews of Israel have taken Pal's lands. There is plenty of evidence to prove this claim, but you happen to be blind to it; not my problem. You can remain ignorant for the rest of your life on that score if that eases any guilt you may have - which I doubt.

Quit lying about what I said. That would be a good start for you!



Foofie
 
  2  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 03:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It shows further ignorance of human relationships of our lives. Not only did I work for a Jewish company, Florsheim, but have worked at other companies with Jewish bosses. I also have Jewish friends. Why in the world would I be anti-semitic? In some circles, we provide evidence of something through anecdotal expressions. Unless you can prove them to be false, you are chasing fart wind.

You have misrepresented what I said: I said that Jews of Israel have taken Pal's lands. There is plenty of evidence to prove this claim, but you happen to be blind to it; not my problem. You can remain ignorant for the rest of your life on that score if that eases any guilt you may have - which I doubt.

Quit lying about what I said. That would be a good start for you!



There is a movie from the 1950's called Gentleman's Agreement. The plot, I believe, showed how a Jewish medical intern was given no assistance to succeed, while the nice Gentile medical intern was helped. When confronted with a charge of anti-Semitism, the standard reply from these doctors in the movie was, "Some of my best friends are Jewish." In effect, people who are attuned to the sensitivities of Jews are aware that the point (of having Jewish friends) can be laughable, since the movie came out.

But, perhaps, you do not empathize with those Americans of European ancestry that are pro-Israel. Those of European descent, might be pro-Israel for the self-serving reason that there is a measure of guilt in many peoples of European descent after the Holocaust. I mean, well meaning folks of European descent, might not feel comfortable with the reality that nice Germans, and other Europeans, were able to exterminate Jews with such aplomb.

And, remember that an Israel may very much be NJIMBY (No Jew In My Back Yard) in the minds of some pro-Israel folk.

My point is that I am a cynic, and do not even think many of the "friends" of Jews are really philosemites, but have some ulterior motive (like Jews in Israel might even hasten the Second Coming).

Much of the anti-Israel, pro-Palestinean sentiment seems to correlate with the end of the Cold War. The Cold War was a good reason to be pro-Israel, since Israel balanced the aims of the Soviet Union to have more hegemony in the Middle East. So, I wonder why the sentiment seems to have shifted to the Palestineans? No use for Jews, so throw them under the proverbial bus?

Personally, I would like to see the Japanese and the Israelis mix and form a new people. Guaranteed they would be a powerhouse of high tech innovations. And the women would not be fat. Just my fantasy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 03:29 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie, You may criticize "your own kind who are Jews," but that also belongs on the laffer curve. Many are much smarter and humane than you are; that's a fact.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 04:11 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
I mean, well meaning folks of European descent, might not feel comfortable with the reality that nice Germans, and other Europeans, were able to exterminate Jews with such aplomb.


You love to point the finger at Germans and Europeans, Foofie, but you seem to have no sense of guilt whatsoever over the millions of Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Phillipinos, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, Chileans, Iranians, Iraqis, Afghans, ... that the USA has butchered or had butchered.

Perhaps it's because Americans have been able to do it not only with aplomb but also with an eye to profits.
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 04:32 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

but it doesn't look as good on CNN, if it bleeds, it leads


That's not the militants' motivation. They don't care how detrimental to the Palestinians' cause their suicide bombings really are. They are motivated by a fatalistic furious indignation. I find it hard to believe that they might think that the violence that they perpetrate in the name of their cause is really effective, or that it is actually advancing their cause.
Advocate
 
  1  
Wed 20 Oct, 2010 06:43 pm
@InfraBlue,
I think your hatred of, and lies about, Israel, are a manifestation of your hatred of Jews. There is really no other explanation. Israel is the only democracy in the ME. It treats its Pal citizens very equally. About the only thing different is that they are not drafted in the military. They cannot be trusted to defend their state. What is this history of Pals to which you refer? A few centuries ago, they were nomads passing through. Israel had a nation until the Romans destroyed it. I know you know what I say is true.
Foofie
 
  2  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 07:52 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
I mean, well meaning folks of European descent, might not feel comfortable with the reality that nice Germans, and other Europeans, were able to exterminate Jews with such aplomb.


You love to point the finger at Germans and Europeans, Foofie, but you seem to have no sense of guilt whatsoever over the millions of Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Phillipinos, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, Chileans, Iranians, Iraqis, Afghans, ... that the USA has butchered or had butchered.

Perhaps it's because Americans have been able to do it not only with aplomb but also with an eye to profits.


I believe you are adding apples to oranges, so to speak, when you equate an attitude of an American, regarding any American military involvement, and the attitude of many ordinary Europeans, regarding the Holocaust (aka, Final Solution).

You see Your Lordship, for a good thousand years Europeans were taught that Jews should be despised. Many were happy when the Nazis exterminated them. Many thought that was the "plus side" of Naziism.

However, most Americans do not feel that any deaths from American military actions are "good."

The two can not be equated logically, nor ethically.

Many Europeans might have accepted the Holocaust with "aplomb"; however, many also gloated over the demise of the Jewish existence in Europe. Americans, I do not believe "gloat" over any deaths resulting from American military actions.

Plus, the extermination of German Jews was specifically a civil war against unarmed citizens. You cannot even make a comparison with the American Civil War, unless you want to talk about the the POW camps. But, that too would not be an equal comparison, since neither side's goal was to commit genocide, and exterminate a people.

Have a nice Christmas, if I do not hear from you until then.
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 10:19 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
However, most Americans do not feel that any deaths from American military actions are "good."

The two can not be equated logically, nor ethically.


They most surely can for these deaths have not come from military actions, they have come from terrorist actions, they have come based on the rapacious and greedy nature of US business interests. They are, in short, war crimes, crimes against humanity.

Quote:
Plus, the extermination of German Jews was specifically a civil war against unarmed citizens.


As was Vietnam, as was Laos, as was the Philippines, as was Nicaragua, as was Cambodia, as was Chile, as was ... .

You live off myths, Foofie. You write foofieism after foofieism, all claptrap, designed to provide cover for one of the worst terrorist nations the world has ever seen.
djjd62
 
  2  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 10:41 am
@InfraBlue,
i was actually commenting on Ghandi's peaceful protest tactics, and how the media might, or might not cover them, i mean after all, the news rarely shows film of a street with the reporter commenting, "no crimes of any kind were committed here today"

JTT
 
  0  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 10:43 am
@Advocate,
Quote:
There is really no other explanation.


You're being disingenuous, Advocate.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 10:59 am
Opinion poll released on the current peace negotiations...

Quote:
Poll: 49% of Palestinians would recognize Jewish state

Survey finds willingness to recognize Israel as Jewish as part of peace deal establishing Palestinian state

additional results

Of the Israelis polled, 78% supported the negotiations, but only 30% of Palestinians expressed the same sentiment. Just 6% of Palestinians and 5% of Israelis believe there is a high chance the talks will succeed. Surprisingly, 56% of Israelis said they would support talks with Hamas in order to reach a deal with the Palestinians.

The survey also found that should the talks indeed fail, 51% of Palestinians interviewed would support non-violent popular resistance.

Among Israelis, 54% said they were worried about being injured by Arab violence in their daily lives. Among Palestinians the figure was higher, with 76% fearing injury by Israeli violence.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 11:14 am
@JPB,
JPB, Thanks for sharing that poll; it seems more Israeli Jews are in agreement with us anti-Semites than the Jews on a2k. That 54% of Israelis worried about being injured by Arab violence confirms what our Tour Director who lives in Jerusalem shared with us. As I see it, the majority including both Jews and Pals want peace with a two state country.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 04:50 pm
@JPB,
I tracked down the poll from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. It states that those numbers have actually dropped since a similar poll was conducted in June. In that poll, the percentage of Palestinians who supported mutual recognition of Israel as the state for the Jewish people and Palestine as the state for the Palestinian people was higher: 58%.

Quote:
In our poll we also examine periodically Israelis’ and Palestinians’ readiness for a mutual recognition of identity as part of a permanent status agreement and after all issues in the conflict are resolved and a Palestinian State is established. Our current poll shows that 64% of the Israelis support and 24% oppose mutual recognition of Israel as the state for the Jewish people and Palestine as the state for the Palestinian people. Among Palestinians, 49% support and 48% oppose this step. In June 2010, 60% of the Israelis supported and 32% opposed this mutual recognition of identity and among the Palestinians support stood at 58% and opposition at 39%.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 04:53 pm
@djjd62,
Gandhi’s peaceful protest tactics were very popular in Britain, and prompted the production of a lot of news films covering his independence movement.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Thu 21 Oct, 2010 05:33 pm
@InfraBlue,
Did a paper on Gandhi in college; he will always have my admiration for having won independence through his non-violence program.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Fri 22 Oct, 2010 11:07 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
However, most Americans do not feel that any deaths from American military actions are "good."

The two can not be equated logically, nor ethically.


They most surely can for these deaths have not come from military actions, they have come from terrorist actions, they have come based on the rapacious and greedy nature of US business interests. They are, in short, war crimes, crimes against humanity.

Quote:
Plus, the extermination of German Jews was specifically a civil war against unarmed citizens.


As was Vietnam, as was Laos, as was the Philippines, as was Nicaragua, as was Cambodia, as was Chile, as was ... .

You live off myths, Foofie. You write foofieism after foofieism, all claptrap, designed to provide cover for one of the worst terrorist nations the world has ever seen.



You are changing arguments in midstream. What is, or is not, a war crime has nothing to do with whether any Americans feel "good" about any war crimes, while many Europeans felt "good" about the Final Solution.

And, your are incorrect about "Vietnam, as was Laos, as was the Philippines, as was Nicaragua, as was Cambodia, as was Chile," being a civil war like Germany had a civil war against German Jews. The only civil war America had was in the nineteenth century. We then killed Americans. I do not know what your point is. Perhaps, you should get back on topic for this thread, and not drag the United States into it. And, if I choose to be pro-Israel, because of my Jewish ancestry, that is mutually exclusive of my being American and conservative politically for the benefit of the United States.

You have never, to my recollection, explained why you are so bothered by military actions that the United States has effected? Oh yes, you are concerned about the world's humanity. Is that the same humanity that does not give a damn if you or I live or die? Do you realize that every U.S. citizen does not subscribe to your universal concerns about humanity? NOR, NEED WE SUBSCRIBE TO A UNIVERSAL CONCERN FOR HUMANITY. DO NOT DISENFRANCHISE ME FROM MY RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS. I AM HAPPY BY ONLY BEING CONCERNED ABOUT AMERICANS. And, no amount of your explaining the supposed evils of military actions by the U.S. will change my position.

Am I correct that you have not had much contact with Jewish Americans, as far as their feelings towards Israel? If you did, you might realize that you are wasting your breath with your position when posting to me.

Since I have identified myself as 1) Jewish (secular), 2) conservative politically, and 3) not subscribing to a universal concept of humanity's worth, could you do the same, since that would show that we are always going to talk at cross-purposes, and it might also show that while I, from my position do not care for your beliefs, you seem to have an overwhelming concern about other's beliefs. Thank goodness that there is no more draft. I believe you would have had a hard time getting along with the cross-section of America that one finds in the military, especially is one does not understand the value to MYOB (Mind Your Own Business).


Foofie
 
  2  
Fri 22 Oct, 2010 11:13 am
Just an odd thought. Since the Palestineans continue to want the "right of return," as part of any peace negotiation, why does Israel not want the right of return, to the countries of origin, for Jewish Israelis? I wonder if that would be met by world approval? Sort of an "even playing field."

Better yet. Since Jews wound up elsewhere, due to the Romans decimating the Second Temple, why not allow any Israelis to acquire Italian citizenship. What goes around, comes around?
0 Replies
 
 

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