63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:24 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thank you.


For what?
For your response. It was a lot shorter and a bit different to what I've heard at university.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:31 am
@gungasnake,
I think this paragraph from the URL I provided above says it all!
Quote:
In several analyses, the population in the study that is most similar to the Jewish populations is the Palestinian population. This result is reflected by the fact that for K=5, Bayesian clustering with Structure assigns the Jewish populations and the Palestinians to the same cluster…and by the relatively close placement of the Palestinians and the Jewish populations in MDS plots of individual distances…This genetic similarity, which is supported by several previous studies…is compatible with a similar Middle Eastern origin of the Jewish populations and the Palestinians. Admixture of the Palestinians with groups with European origins might have maintained or augmented this shared ancestry, especially if it was paralleled with similar admixture of these groups with Jewish populations.


Ironic!
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 02:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
In cicerone imposter's cite, Razib Khan wrote:
Admixture of the Palestinians with groups with European origins might have maintained or augmented this shared ancestry, especially if it was paralleled with similar admixture of these groups with Jewish populations.


The genetic admixture referred to in this quote occurred under different historical circumstances.

The Ashkenazim are generally Europeans with some Semitic admixture, their ancestry being Europeans who intermarried with Semitic immigrants there, whereas the Palestinians are generally Semites with some European admixture, their ancestry being Semites in Palestine intermarrying with European emigrants thereto.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 03:27 pm
@InfraBlue,
Semites marrying Europeans is different than Europeans marrying Semites?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 04:01 pm
@RABEL222,
Genetically speaking, the difference is where the intermarrying occured, and the frequency of the admixture thereof.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 04:40 pm
@InfraBlue,
I knew what you meant. It's all about ratios.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  0  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:17 pm
@InfraBlue,
I see what you mean but place and time arnt compatible. Place and place I can see.
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:02 pm
@RABEL222,
Time in regard to history because it occurred in the past in different places.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:17 am
@InfraBlue,
e
InfraBlue wrote:

Genetically speaking, the difference is where the intermarrying occured, and the frequency of the admixture thereof.


However, Rin Tin Tin was originally one shepherd of mixed ancestry that then was developed, on purpose, into its own gene pool, so Germany had its own authentic German shepherd. The other shepherds in Germany did not breed with the Rin Tin Tin line (gene pool), so their descendants literaly "regressed to the mean" and are mutts somewhere.

So, if Palestineans have removed themselves from mixing with other Arabs, they can be said to have their own gene pool. And, Israeli Jews can be said to be developing their own gene pool, once again. The point of contention is whether the world is willing to allow them to do this, since there is more than six million Jews missing in 2013, having had six million taken out of the European gene pool back in WWII. It has to do with making amends for genocide. Not looking backwards to see who is authentically an indigenous person of the middle east. If that was the criteria, Americans better give the land back to the Native Americans.

P.S.: But your use of the word "admixture" does sound sort of professorial, and adds a panache to your one-sided position, in my opinion.

P.P.S.: The thinking you espouse is somewhat late, since from 1948 to today, there are already around three generations of native born (Sabra) Israelis, quite mixed between Sephardim and Ashkenazim, since the universal draft has a big effect on the mixing of the two populations. Now the world has a population of Sabras that lay claim to the land, as an indigenous population. Regardless, from your ivory tower, where you get to use big words, like "admixture," the situation is out of your control and others that have the world's problems on their minds. Quite funny, in my opinion.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:20 am
@Foofie,
Getting heart-up now, heh? LOL You really look more foolish now then before - trying to rationalize away the facts.
Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:22 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
since there is more than six million Jews missing in 2013, having had six million taken out of the European gene pool back in WWII. It has to do with making amends for genocide.


As sad as this is, Foofie, and it is, why do you always fixate on this to the exclusion of the millions the US taken out of the gene pool from virtually every country on the planet. If what the Nazis did was evil, it can't compare to the ongoing, relentless genocide that the US continues to engage in even as we speak.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:25 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
However, Rin Tin Tin was originally one shepherd of mixed ancestry that then developed, on purpose, into its own gene pool, so Germany had its own authentic German shepherd. The other shepherds in Germany did not breed with the Rin Tin Tin line (gene pool), so their descendants literaly "regressed to the mean" and are mutts somewhere.
The Canaan Dog originated in the 1930s out of breedings of the wild dogs of Palestine. So Israel has its own authentic Israel shepherd dog, too.
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:32 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
since there is more than six million Jews missing in 2013, having had six million taken out of the European gene pool back in WWII. It has to do with making amends for genocide.


As sad as this is, Foofie, and it is, why do you fixate on to the exclusion of the millions the US taken out of the gene pool from virtually every country on the planet. If what the Nazis did was evil, it can't compare to the ongoing, relentless genocide that the US continues to engage in even as we speak.


However, it is not my choice to be concerned about your concerns, since you are not just proselytizing a viewpoint, but proselytizing who must have those concerns too. That is the false premise. Sort of like saying that I must learn to believe in another's religion, just because it is a correct religion. The religion can be correct; however, I can ignore it. That is my right, especially as an American. Bye-bye.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:33 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

e
InfraBlue wrote:

Genetically speaking, the difference is where the intermarrying occured, and the frequency of the admixture thereof.


However, Rin Tin Tin was originally one shepherd of mixed ancestry that then was developed, on purpose, into its own gene pool, so Germany had its own authentic German shepherd. The other shepherds in Germany did not breed with the Rin Tin Tin line (gene pool), so their descendants literaly "regressed to the mean" and are mutts somewhere.

So, if Palestineans have removed themselves from mixing with other Arabs, they can be said to have their own gene pool. And, Israeli Jews can be said to be developing their own gene pool, once again. The point of contention is whether the world is willing to allow them to do this, since there is more than six million Jews missing in 2013, having had six million taken out of the European gene pool back in WWII. It has to do with making amends for genocide. Not looking backwards to see who is authentically an indigenous person of the middle east. If that was the criteria, Americans better give the land back to the Native Americans.

P.S.: But your use of the word "admixture" does sound sort of professorial, and adds a panache to your one-sided position, in my opinion.

P.P.S.: The thinking you espouse is somewhat late, since from 1948 to today, there are already around three generations of native born (Sabra) Israelis, quite mixed between Sephardim and Ashkenazim, since the universal draft has a big effect on the mixing of the two populations. Now the world has a population of Sabras that lay claim to the land, as an indigenous population. Regardless, from your ivory tower, where you get to use big words, like "admixture," the situation is out of your control and others that have the world's problems on their minds. Quite funny, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
However, Rin Tin Tin was originally one shepherd of mixed ancestry that then developed, on purpose, into its own gene pool, so Germany had its own authentic German shepherd. The other shepherds in Germany did not breed with the Rin Tin Tin line (gene pool), so their descendants literaly "regressed to the mean" and are mutts somewhere.
The Canaan Dog originated in the 1930s out of breedings of the wild dogs of Palestine. So Israel has its own authentic Israel shepherd dog, too.


There's a book out about Rin Tin Tin. A German aristocrat went all through Germany in the late 19th century to find a two shepherds with the best traits, and then bred the two dogs, and then inbred the offspring. Rin Tin Tin is a highly inbred line; however, it is smart, friendly to humans, and does a good job of shepherding. I think Bismarck wanted to do the same thing when he wanted German Jews to convert to Lutheranism.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:56 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
I think Bismarck wanted to do the same thing when he wanted German Jews to convert to Lutheranism.
I've never heard of such.

What I do know, however, is that Bismarck introduced the "Law on Freedom of Religion" [Gesetz, betreffend die Gleichberechtigung der Konfessionen in bürgerlicher und staatsbürgerlicher Beziehung], which consisted of a single paragraph that came into effect on July 3, 1869. Without specifically mentioning Protestants or Catholics, Christians or non-Christians, it ensured the formal, legal emancipation of the Jews in all territories of the North German Confederation. This law was became later unchanged law of German Reich.
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 11:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
I think Bismarck wanted to do the same thing when he wanted German Jews to convert to Lutheranism.
I've never heard of such.

What I do know, however, is that Bismarck introduced the "Law on Freedom of Religion" [Gesetz, betreffend die Gleichberechtigung der Konfessionen in bürgerlicher und staatsbürgerlicher Beziehung], which consisted of a single paragraph that came into effect on July 3, 1869. Without specifically mentioning Protestants or Catholics, Christians or non-Christians, it ensured the formal, legal emancipation of the Jews in all territories of the North German Confederation. This law was became later unchanged law of German Reich.



I once read a biography of Bismarck. I thought he was sort of anti-Catholic, and thought that German Jews would be an enhancement to the German gene pool (not those words in the late 19th century).

You didn't know he might have been anti-Catholic?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 12:11 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
You didn't know he might have been anti-Catholic?
I've studied history at university. But since the "Kulturkampf" has been an important part of German history, this had been taught at history classes at school as well. And it still is part of the curriculum.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 01:44 pm
@Foofie,
Seeing as how you’ve utterly failed to grasp it, the point I’m making is to counter the very idea of looking backwards to see who is authentically an indigenous person of the Middle East, and the ridiculous claim based on that that the Zionists were and are the indigenous population of Palestine. The Palestinians are the indigenous population. What is incumbent upon the Zionists is to give equal rights to the indigenous population of Palestine. This is what Americans have done, to a considerable degree, to the Native Americans in the US.

It doesn’t take an ivory tower to see that the genocide perpetrated in Europe does not justify the Zionists’ repression of the Palestinian peoples.

That the situation is out of my control certainly doesn’t prevent me from commenting on the glaringly obvious problems therein, much the same as your melodramatic admonitions to not respond to your posts don’t prevent me from doing so.

So, you can respond to my posts, but I can’t to yours? What a hypocrite, how quintessentially Zionist. Now that’s risible!
izzythepush
 
  0  
Thu 26 Sep, 2013 01:54 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Seeing as how you’ve utterly failed to grasp it,


You talk as if something else might be possible. You're a nice guy, but you're not a miracle worker.
 

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