Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

BEST GUESS:

Israel will remain where it is...and hatred and bloodshed will remain the norm for the area.

Not hatred, necessarily, in my opinion. Possibly the best that can be hoped for is mutual contempt. Possibly even no bloodshed. Mutual contempt allows people, in my opinion, to save face, since it shows they really haven't changed their opinions of others, but have decided to stop "acting out" the hostility. If you are familiar with adjacent neighborhoods, of different ethnic groups, in urban America, it reflected oftentimes a "mutual contempt," without "acting out."

The nice thing about "mutual contempt," without "acting out," is the respective parties are inured to each other's contempt towards themselves. It's more realistic, in my opinion, than that love thy neighbor schtick.

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@0bserver,

Quote:

Sorry, I can't read your entire post at the moment, but the second paragraph is already incorrect:
"Thus only kosher meat is allowed in Israel "

Anyone who has ever been to Israel knows that you can get as much non-Kosher anything as you like.

You are correct in that certain sections of Israel pork is served. There was a visiting professor from Israel at our University who died recently of Lupus. I don't recall how we got around to discussing pork, but he said there were people licensed to serve pork there and that Russian Jews who ate pork were able to get it in Israel; also, Russian Jews who had gotten used to their Christmas Trees were allowed to buy them in Israel. The research done for my article came from a professor emeritus who had done a great deal of research on Israeli culture and laws....I believe the article was written in the late 70s. Things, obviously change, especially with Russian Jews' arrival in the 1990s, and their bringing much of their culture with them.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

0bserver wrote:
"Thus only kosher meat is allowed in Israel "

Anyone who has ever been to Israel knows that you can get as much non-Kosher anything as you like.

Which shows how much respect the Israelis have for laws. Just because something is on the statute book doesn't mean anyone pays attention to it. The same is true of all those laws that govern the IDF's behaviour.

Why do you think so many Gibraltarian Sephardic Jews choose to stay British in Gibraltar rather than move to Israel?

You bring up an interesting aside. For a millenia, if not longer, Jews mixed with Eastern Europeans. In effect, many Ashkenazi Jews do not like hot weather. Israel is hot. Genetically, Jews may just be a people of a cooler climate today. That may also be why all retired Jews do not go to Florida.

Plus, the Orthodox have some control of the culture in Israel, aside from it adopting a middle eastern culture, from the influx in 1957 of middle eastern Jews.

In other words, many Jews are quite comfortable in western secular culture, lands. Israel represents, in my opinion, in many cases a sort of National Health Insurance policy, since many Gentiles have this periodic habit of following a demi-god, with all the anti-Semitism that often goes with that. So...all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again (aka, the Palestine Mandate).

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@Foofie,

Don't you think it's because they're treated better in Gibraltar than they would be in Israel?

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

Why do you think so many Gibraltarian Sephardic Jews choose to stay British in Gibraltar rather than move to Israel?

The answer is there is more freedom to be had outside of Israel. Even in America there is very little desire to go to Israel unless you're running away from something and think Israel will protect one of its own.
______

Women Of The Wall Blocked From Western Wall By Ultra-Orthodox Protesters
Reuters | By Allyn Fisher-Ilan\/Updated: 07/08/2013 1:39 pm EDT

JERUSALEM, July 8 (Reuters) - Several thousand ultra-Orthodox protesters effectively blocked Jewish women activists campaigning for equal worship rights at the Western Wall from holding a monthly prayer session on Monday at the holy site.

Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said members and supporters of the Women of the Wall group were escorted by police to a spot a short distance from the Western Wall "to make sure there would be no incidents".

A spokeswoman for the movement, which is challenging the Orthodox monopoly over rites at the Western Wall, called the incident a setback after a court decided in April the women could legally don prayer shawls that Orthodox ritual says are meant for men only.

Prayer rites at the site, revered by Jews as a perimeter wall of the Biblical Temple, are part of a long struggle between Israel's secular majority and ultra-Orthodox minority over lifestyle in the Jewish state, where institutions such as marriage, divorce and burial are controlled by rabbis.

Women pray at a separate section, set apart from men. Women of the Wall want to be able to practice the rituals reserved by Orthodox law for men - such as wearing prayer shawls and reading out loud from the Torah, or holy scriptures - in their section.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/08/women-of-the-wall-ultra-orthodox-_n_3560599.html

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@Moment-in-Time,

Isn't it an irony that those who say Israel is a democracy can't see their own hypocrisy - against women.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

Don't you think it's because they're treated better in Gibraltar than they would be in Israel?

I vividly recall the Russian airlifts to Israel....it was right after Bush Sr had denied Yitzhak Shamir's request for a 10 billion-dollar loan guarantee to airlift Russian and Ethiopians Jews into Israel. Bush, the elder, has asked Shamir to stop building settlements and if he did the US would give Israel the 10-B loan guarantee. The miniature Shamir had conniptions, screeching at the top of his itty bitty lungs that no power on earth would prevent Israel from building all over the West Bank and anywhere he desired. The next administration, Bill Clinton, allowed the Israelis to get their 10-billion dollar loan guarantee.

When the airlift of Russian Jews came about, many of them wanted to go anywhere in the world except Israel. First on their list of places to live was Germany...oh the irony! Second was Britain and third was America. They did not want to go to Israel.

Israel has very strict religious its laws and is closer to a Theocracy.

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@0bserver,

Quote:

There's a saying in Russia: "If there is no water in your tap, the Jews must have drunk it".

You are funny, Observer.

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@Moment-in-Time,

Sure. So how do you explain the million Russian Jews who decided to stick around in Israel and do pretty well: medical doctors, professors at universities, members of parliament, high-tech CEOs etc?

About religious laws, I'm not going to deny there are some leftover things to be fixed like marriage laws in Israel. But those old laws were also passed democratically - they are just as moral as the UK vote on Syria. You want a democracy - you get a democracy, not always you're going to like it.

And now, please compare Israel's "theocracy" to its neighbors. How religiously free is Saudi Arabia? Do you prefer to be a gay person in Israel or in Egypt? Do you prefer to be a Christian in Mekka or in Jerusalem? Israel has its problems, but the rate people go at it has no proportions, and you know it. But the other places have no Jews, so why attack them?

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@Moment-in-Time,

This is sad, actually. This is the world view of many many typical antisemites. And antisemitism is rising now in Europe - big time.

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@0bserver,

There aren't any Christians in Mecca.

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@0bserver,

You wrote,

Quote:

But those old laws were also passed democratically - ...

Just because something is passed "democratically" doesn't make it ethical or right. Most people in democracies understand what is right and wrong. Appropriating other people's land without their approval is illegal by international laws. The one claiming it's a democracy belongs in the loony bin.

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@izzythepush,

My point exactly!

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@0bserver,

Why is that your point? You couldn't be a Christian in Mecca even if you wanted to. It's a nonsense proposal. It's like saying would you rather be gay in North Korea or the South Pole?

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@izzythepush,

My point is that it is not safe for Christians there. It is not safe for Shia Muslims there even.

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@Moment-in-Time,

It's funny how you phrase it: "used to their Christmas Trees were allowed to buy them in Israel." Allowed? Really? Are you allowed to buy a Christmas Tree?

The only plant you're not allowed to sell or buy in Israel is cannabis. And even for that there's a party that almost got a seat in the parliament once:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ale_Yarok

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@0bserver,

Really.

Quote:

Israeli rabbis warn: Yule be in trouble if you put up Christmas trees
Municipal chief rabbis rescind kashrut certificates from businesses with Christmas trees.
By Yair Ettinger | Dec. 24, 2012 | 1:37 AM | 24

Christmas
You'd better watch out: A Palestinian man dressed up as Santa Claus and carrying a Christmas tree as he walks along the walls of Jerusalem’s Old City yesterday.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Don't you think it's because they're treated better in Gibraltar than they would be in Israel?

I wouldn't know. My only feeling is that the intractable Jew hatred in Europe over the last two millenia will never stop completely, so Jews should just have a place where they can forget that the world is not Jewish. I have no knowledge of Gibralter, or anywhere outside the U.S.A. I am quite content to live in the confines of the U.S. Foreign cultures do not excite me. The only reason we can communicate is because English is spoken in both our countries. I keep hearing British accents on the streets of NYC. An exodus?

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

Don't you think it's because they're treated better in Gibraltar than they would be in Israel?

I wouldn't know. My only feeling is that the intractable Jew hatred in Europe over the last two millenia will never stop completely, so Jews should just have a place where they can forget that the world is not Jewish.

So they pick a place where there is no Jewish hatred to set up a state of Israel...like smack dab in the middle of an area filled with Arabs?

I understand the frustration, but do you see the logical inconsistency?

Quote:

I have no knowledge of Gibralter, or anywhere outside the U.S.A. I am quite content to live in the confines of the U.S. Foreign cultures do not excite me. The only reason we can communicate is because English is spoken in both our countries. I keep hearing British accents on the streets of NYC. An exodus?

On a lighter note: The British might suggest that on the streets of NYC, you often hear the absense of the American accent rather than that you hear a British accent. They think we have the accent...and many of their actors are very adept at mimicking our accent.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

Don't you think it's because they're treated better in Gibraltar than they would be in Israel?

I keep hearing British accents on the streets of NYC. An exodus?

I love the way you can extrapolate something from one tiny anecdote. I hear American accents whenever I go to London. There were three Americans in the lift at WestQuay last week. One was in a wheelchair.

Trying to take advantage of Universal Health Care?

1 Reply

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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