63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
0bserver
 
  2  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 05:49 pm
@0bserver,
but I don't want to go into this whole "indigenous" business. You have a country of Israel with equal rights for all its citizens. Next to it you can have a country of Palestine - I hope they will give equal rights to their citizens (I seriously doubt it). But that is such a natural way to solve things. What's the point in extremist Jews claiming ALL the land and the Arabs claiming ALL the land, and fighting forever?
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 05:52 pm
@0bserver,
You've missed out the fact that Israel is occupying Palestine, the only rights the Palestinians have are those the soldiers with the guns feel like allowing them at any particular moment.

I'm going to bed now. Night night.
0bserver
 
  2  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 05:53 pm
@izzythepush,
No argument here. Israeli army shouldn't be on Palestinian territories. I said that before. Hopefully Palestinian fire wont' follow the pull out
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  2  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 06:03 pm
@izzythepush,
No. What do both of them know about the Middle East
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  2  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 06:16 pm
@JTT,
I'm saying the map is a lie. The person posting it may be just naive
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 07:01 pm
@0bserver,
If you want to call the map a lie, then provide reliable sources on what it should be. Otherwise, you're just whisl'n bull ****! Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 09:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
At least Indians aren't boxed in prisons like the Palestinians.


One of the benefits of civilized conduct...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 09:13 pm
@gungasnake,
You don't know what the **** you're talking about - as always!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 12 Aug, 2013 11:10 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
So what would be an proportional response to Israel taking more and more land ahead of any Palestinian state deal? Just sit back and take the crumbs they might be lucky enough to be left with?

Israel has not taken any land since the 1967 war. Since then they've only given up land (when they've thought that doing so would lead to peace).

Settlement construction will not have any impact on what land the Palestinians get. Those boundaries will be determined by negotiations.

Any settlements that are on land that is handed over to the Palestinians, will be dismantled.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 07:17 am
Quote:
Main rules of occupation

Once a States become an occupying power, several fundamental rules should be respected in the treatment of prisoners, civilians and their properties. The main rules of occupation are summarised below.

Civilians shall be treated as protected persons (article 4 IVGC and article 47 IVGC). They are entitled to respect for their person, their honour, their family rights, religious convictions, and traditions. They shall be treated humanely and never be discriminated against (article 27 IVGC

Forcible transfers and deportations of civilians into the territory of the occupying power or any other country are prohibited. Nevertheless, civilians may be evacuated from a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Civilians who have been evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area have stopped (article 49 IVGC).


The occupying power shall not deport or transfer members of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies (article 49 IVGC). This means that settlements are prohibited. The occupying power cannot confiscate land in the occupied territory for the sole purpose of establishing settlements for its nationals. The occupying power also has the responsibility to preserve and maintain the demographic and social configuration of the occupied territory, which may entail restricting even voluntary migrations.




source
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 07:53 am
@0bserver,
[quote="0bserver What's the point in extremist Jews claiming ALL the land and the Arabs claiming ALL the land, and fighting forever?
[/quote]

Look at the above sentence. You've stated only extremist Israelis want all the land, but that all Arabs want all of it. You must know that's not true.

For a start Fatah, the main Palestinian grouping, accepted Israel's right to exist donkey's years ago. Hamas' refusal to acknowledge Israel is as much a rhetorical stance as anything else. It's no different from the IRA and Sinn Fein's insistence on a United Ireland. What's important is a cease fire and peace. NI isn't perfect by any means, there's a lot of trouble right now because it's parades season, but it's considerably better than what was going on prior to the Good Friday Agreement. Hamas has shown in can observe ceasefires, and that should be good enough for now. A good period of peace is the best solution to future conflict.

Your suggestion of Palestinian intransigence may have had some traction in the 1970s when Israeli peacemakers from the Labor Party did find they were banging their heads against a brick wall, but not now. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the massive numbers of Russians arriving, Israel has become steadily more right wing. The settlers are gaining in influence. It's their intransigence and downright aggression that's the biggest obstacle to peace.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 08:03 am
@0bserver,
Instead of making snide comment about the UK coercing Islanders into voting to stay under UK control why don't you actually furnish some evidence. There's plenty the other way.


Quote:
A referendum on political status was held in the Falkland Islands on 10–11 March 2013. The Falkland Islanders were asked whether or not they supported the continuation of their status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom in view of Argentina's call for negotiations on the islands' sovereignty.

On a turnout of 92%, 99.8% voted overwhelmingly to remain a British territory, with only three votes against. Had the islanders rejected the continuation of their current status, a second referendum on possible alternatives would have been held. Brad Smith, the leader of the international observer group, announced that the referendum was free and fair and executed in accordance with international standards and international laws.


Quote:
A team of 8 independent, experienced international observers deployed to monitor the Falkland Islands Referendum. The independent Referendum International Observation Mission – Misión Internacional de Observación del Referendo (RIOM/MIOR) included current and retired legislators, civil society leaders, journalists and international observation experts from Brazil, Chile, Mexico, New Zealand, Uruguay and the United States of America. The team was led by Brad Smith and Juan Manuel Henao.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013
http://www.topix.com/forum/world/falkland-islands/T3DHCQCPDCRPC5VTB
Now can we stick to the subject at hand or are you going to have another pop at me just because I'm English?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 08:29 am
observer says:
Quote:
@izzythepush,

Palestinians aren't indigenous to the West Bank even. Let alone Israel


Yes, they are. Demographic history disagrees with you.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 08:53 am
@MontereyJack,
Since its formation Israel has lead a campaign to try to convince the world that there was no such thing as a Palestinian people. Observer's comment reflects how successful they've been.

How are you anyway?
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 09:44 am
@0bserver,
You wrote,
Quote:
You have a country of Israel with equal rights for all its citizens.


You are really dumb, aren't you? How many sources must we post about the unequal rights of Palestinians in Israel for you to understand the facts?

You're like talking to a stone wall; it absorbs nothing that you wish to ignore.
You've been brainwashed like a parrot; don't know what you're saying, just repeating **** without any concept of what you're saying.

Quit repeating that bull **** about "equal rights for all."

You're a ******* loser, and not worth the time or effort to have a discussion with.

I don't know why more people don't have you on Ignore.

JTT
 
  0  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 10:23 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You are really dumb, aren't you? How many sources must we post about the unequal rights of Palestinians in Israel for you to understand the facts?

You're like talking to a stone wall; it absorbs nothing that you wish to ignore.
You've been brainwashed like a parrot; don't know what you're saying, just repeating **** without any concept of what you're saying.


I haven't read enough of Observer to know whether your assessment is at all accurate, CI, but you've described a whole bunch of people here at A2K, including yourself.
0 Replies
 
0bserver
 
  2  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 11:00 am
@izzythepush,
Being over picky again. I meant extremists on both sides. I'm aware of some portion of Palestinians being opposed to violence. I wouldn't go as far as saying that all of Fatah is - Marwan Barghutti et al are not. How about the charter of PLO that still calls for the destruction of Israel?

And as for Israel becoming more right wing because of the Russian immigrants - that's utter nonsense. That immigration is what got Labor to win elections in the 90s and let Rabin start the peace talks. I wouldn't say Israel is becoming more right wing - it's the way European media presents it. The settlers are a negligible minority in Israel. What fraction of the Palestinians belongs to the Fatah? If anything, both Israelis and Palestinians are becoming more and more skeptical - well, both have good reasons to be. I hope it changes.



0bserver
 
  2  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 11:17 am
@izzythepush,
I can say the same thing. Since the formation of the PLO, they have been trying to convince everyone they are a native people. Arafat was born in Cairo. But that's not my point. You don't have to be native to be a people.UK was populated by vikings at some point and taken over by the Romans and the French. So what?

Palestinians are a people, and they have the right to their own state. I don't care if they lived in Jenin for 100 or 400 years. If people stop inciting them to fight for Afula, maybe they will have their own state one day.

izzythepush
 
  -1  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 11:30 am
@0bserver,
0bserver wrote:
UK was populated by vikings at some point and taken over by the Romans and the French. So what?


Bit of an unusual time line you've got there. I went to College with a guy who's dad worked for the foreign office. He was English but he was born in Beirut.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Tue 13 Aug, 2013 11:34 am
@0bserver,
0bserver wrote:

Being over picky again.


Not in the slightest, in this debate, above all others, it's best to be very careful about your choice of language.
0 Replies
 
 

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