62
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2021 07:42 am
@revelette3,

Only the New York Times could manage to find a way to condemn Jews for living in Israel.

I disagree with that last line about "Arabs not leaving either". I think that any Israeli Arab who engages in serious unjustified violence should earn themselves a one way ticket to the Gaza Strip.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2021 09:05 am
I was just looking over how Israel was doing with the Security Fence, and I notice that there is still no Security Fence for the Gush Etzion Settlement Block.

It seems that the struggle over the Efrata settlement is still holding everything up, with the Palestinians able to raise enough international pressure to block construction every time Israel tries to cut across Route 60 to fence off Efrata.

But it looks like the alternative Fence route (red dotted line on the map) would leave the entire settlement block on the Palestinian side of the Fence. That's no good.

Since it looks like it's going to be impossible to cross Route 60 and fence off Efrata, I suggest that the next best option is to run the Fence along Route 60.

Efrata will be on the Palestinian side of the Security Fence, true. But most of the settlement block will be on the Israeli side of the Fence. And that will be much preferable to not having any of the settlement block at all on the Israeli side of the Security Fence.

The idea of Beitar Illit (a city with 60,000 settlers) being on the Palestinian side of the Security Fence is unthinkable.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/"State_Land"_declarations_in_the_Gush_Etzion_settlement_area_%28Bethlehem%29.png

Map is originally from this article (just in case anyone is curious about the point of the "state land declarations" on the map):
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/large-area-bethlehem-declared-state-land
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 08:25 am
Quote:
‘A war declaration’: Palestinians in Israel decry mass arrests

Israeli police announced their intent to arrest hundreds of Palestinian citizens of Israel over the coming days for their participation in recent sit-ins in support of Palestinians in occupied East Jerusalem and the besieged Gaza Strip.

The wave of mass arrests will take place as part of what police called “operation law and order”. It is intended to penalise those who have taken part in demonstrations against settler violence, the Israeli forces’ crackdown on the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, and the military’s 11-day bombardment campaign of Gaza, which killed 248 people.

In a statement on Sunday night, Israeli police said some 1,550 people have already been arrested since May 9 and the campaign is a “continuation” that aims to “prosecute” demonstrators who have over the past two weeks taken to the streets in towns and cities across Israel.

Thousands of security forces from “all units” will be deployed to carry out raids, it said, in towns and cities predominantly inhabited by Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up about 20 percent of the country’s population.

The statement did not say the campaign would target Jewish settlers who have attacked Palestinians and their homes, as documented in videos and images widely shared on social media.

Police – including border guards and reserve brigades – will search homes and conduct “investigations” until charges are submitted and prison sentences are imposed, it added.

General Director of Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, declared the campaign a “war” against Palestinian demonstrators, political activists, and minors.

The massive arrest operation is a “militarised war against Palestinian citizens of Israel,” Jabareen said in a statement sent to Al Jazeera on Monday, urging a “rapid response” from all Palestinian political movements, parties, and from the High Follow-up Committee for Arab Citizens of Israel.

The purpose of the arrests is to “intimidate and to exact revenge on Palestinian citizens of Israel – ‘to settle the score’ with Palestinians, in the Israeli police’s own words – for their political positions and activities”, he said.


ALJAZEERA
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  3  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 09:43 am
Attacks on Jews Over Israel Are a Gift to the Right

Quote:
Many progressives, particularly progressive Jews, have worked hard to break this automatic identification and to open up space in the Democratic Party to denounce Israel’s entrenched occupation and human rights abuses. This wave of anti-Semitic violence will increase the difficulty of that work. The Zionist right claims that to assail Israel is to assail all Jews. Those who terrorize Jews out of rage at Israel seem to make their point for them.

Not surprisingly, there’s been a rush to blame left-wing Democrats like Ilhan Omar, who described Israeli airstrikes killing civilians in Gaza as “terrorism,” for inciting anti-Jewish hostility. “If you blamed violent attacks against Asian-Americans on Trump calling Covid the ‘Chinese virus,’ but you can’t see how congresswomen accusing Israel of terrorism might result in Jews being attacked by pro-Palestinian mobs, you either can’t think or you have a problem with Jews,” Batya Ungar-Sargon, deputy opinion editor at Newsweek, tweeted last week.

But by this logic, those of us concerned about hate crimes against Asian-Americans shouldn’t denounce China’s genocide of the Uighurs. Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is often so shocking that just describing it neutrally seems defamatory; when Human Rights Watch decided, last month, to accuse Israel of the crime of apartheid, it was because the facts on the ground left it little choice. As Eric Goldstein, acting executive director of H.R.W.’s Middle East and North Africa division, wrote in The Forward last month, it’s not just that Palestinians live under relentless Israeli oppression.

“What’s gone is the possibility of saying, with a straight face, that it is temporary,” he wrote. “Israeli authorities today clearly intend to maintain this system of severe discrimination into the future — an intent that constitutes the third prong of the crime of apartheid.”

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 09:51 am
@revelette3,
On the BBC website there’s a story about a chatroom called Clubhouse. It’s subtitle is meet Israelis and Palestinians and its purpose is to get them talking to each other, it’s quite popular.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 09:59 am
@revelette3,
The right has always fuelled division.

Our own resident neo Nazi is happy for Holocaust denial and anti Semitic language to be used against people like George Soros, but screams anti Semite whenever Israel is criticised.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 11:57 am
@oralloy,
Israel hasn't facilitated the return of the inhabitants who fled in violation of Res. 237, and hasn't complied with the call for a just settlement of the refugee problem in violation of Res. 242.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 12:39 pm
@InfraBlue,
Israel has made multiple offers to comply with those resolutions in exchange for the Palestinians also complying with those resolutions.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 12:40 pm
@izzythepush,
Godwin's Law. I win another debate with izzythepush.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 12:41 pm
@revelette3,
NYT wrote:
Many progressives, particularly progressive Jews, have worked hard to break this automatic identification and to open up space in the Democratic Party to denounce Israel's entrenched occupation and human rights abuses.

Shame on these neonazis for falsely accusing Israel of imaginary atrocities.


NYT wrote:
Not surprisingly, there's been a rush to blame left-wing Democrats like Ilhan Omar, who described Israeli airstrikes killing civilians in Gaza as "terrorism," for inciting anti-Jewish hostility.

Only a neonazi like her could say that it was terrorism for Israelis to defend themselves from murderers.


NYT wrote:
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is often so shocking that just describing it neutrally seems defamatory;

I don't find the idea of "Israelis defending themselves from murderers" particularly shocking.


NYT wrote:
when Human Rights Watch decided, last month, to accuse Israel of the crime of apartheid, it was because the facts on the ground left it little choice.

No, it was because HRW are neonazis.


NYT wrote:
As Eric Goldstein, acting executive director of H.R.W.'s Middle East and North Africa division, wrote in The Forward last month, it's not just that Palestinians live under relentless Israeli oppression.

As if "telling them not to murder people" was oppression.


NYT wrote:
"Israeli authorities today clearly intend to maintain this system of severe discrimination into the future -- an intent that constitutes the third prong of the crime of apartheid."

"Telling someone that they can't murder Israelis" is neither discrimination nor apartheid.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 01:09 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Israel has made multiple offers to comply with those resolutions in exchange for the Palestinians also complying with those resolutions.

Israel violates the Palestinians' right of return in accordance with these treaties and resolutions.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 01:16 pm
@InfraBlue,
Security Council resolutions are not treaties.

I'm not sure if you are just repeating your claim that Israel is violating these Security Council resolutions? If so, I repeat that Israel has offered to comply with them in exchange for the Palestinians also complying with them.

Or are you trying to say that Israel's compliance with Security Council resolutions would violate the right of return? If so, I point out that there is no such right.
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 03:38 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Security Council resolutions are not treaties.

I didn't say they were.

oralloy wrote:

I'm not sure if you are just repeating your claim that Israel is violating these Security Council resolutions? If so, I repeat that Israel has offered to comply with them in exchange for the Palestinians also complying with them.

Or are you trying to say that Israel's compliance with Security Council resolutions would violate the right of return? If so, I point out that there is no such right.

I am saying that Israel violates the Palestinians' right of return. This Right of Return is in accordance with these treaties and resolutions.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2021 03:44 pm
@InfraBlue,
There is no such right.
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2021 08:27 am
Quote:
Occupied East Jerusalem – An Israeli court has postponed its decision on an appeal lodged by Palestinian families facing forced displacement from their homes in occupied East Jerusalem’s Silwan district.

The appeal was against an Israeli court verdict in 2020, which okayed the expulsion of seven Palestinian families in order for Jewish settlers to move into the predominantly Arab district – part of the Israeli policy to build settler homes in occupied East Jerusalem, which is seen by Palestinians as their future capital.

“This policy of forcible expulsion has been going on for decades to push out the Palestinians in neighbourhoods in occupied East Jerusalem [to make way for] settlers…” said Al Jazeera’s Hoda Abdel-Hamid, speaking outside the Israeli magistrate court in Salahadin Street in East Jerusalem, where dozens of Palestinians had gathered to protest.

Heavily armed Israeli forces were also present in front of the court. At least one Palestinian, Qutaiba Odeh, was arrested at the protest. Odeh, a father of three who lives in the al-Bustan area in Silwan, has a demolishing order on his house.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/26/israeli-court-delays-appeal-session-of-families-in-silwan
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2021 02:10 pm
@revelette3,
East Jerusalem belongs to Israel. Jerusalem is their eternal undivided capital and is home to the most holy site in their religion. The Palestinians should stop trying to steal it.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2021 03:36 pm
@oralloy,
Uh-huh.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2021 10:30 am
I read a piece in the WP about the dueling history of the debate of Palestine. When an unbiased person reads the article, it is hard to know which version is actually the truth. How in the world is a person supposed to know the truth when both sides have such contrasting histories and everyone else has picked sides and so goes with whatever side they want to believe?

There was another link embedded in the piece which was interesting to read as well.

The dueling histories in the debate over ‘historic Palestine

https://www.akevot.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/1948ISReport-Eng.pdf

Quote:
Migration of Eretz Yisrael Arabs between December 1, 1947 and June 1, 1948


All kinds of factors led to displacement of the non-Jewish population which lived in the ME before the creation of Israel according to the above report.

As near as I can piece together so far, (very simplistic terms cause that is pretty well how I usually talk) the Arabs rejected the partition plan because they felt it was unfair and perhaps some of them rejected altogether the notion of creating a state of Israel period. So they fought against it and lost time and time again. According to Israel's own military report, 70 percent of the Arabic people left their homes because of Israel military reasons. So here we are today with no end in sight and no solution.

I wonder what the other Arabic nations want to happen with Israel and Palestine? Do they think the Arabs and Palestinians who live there now should just give up and emigrate to other countries and let Israel have the whole thing? What country would accept them? Why aren't they saying anything now?

Personally I think the whole thing going back to the very beginning of UN Jewish state mandate and partition plan was just one big huge mistake and should have been rethought with another solution to the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. I don't know what though. Why was the UN mandate necessary at the time? After the WW2 were the Jewish people persecuted at whatever country they escaped to and so had nowhere to live safely and in peace?

Perhaps those questions are considered to be anti-Semitic but I don't mean them to be.
InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2021 01:48 pm
@revelette3,
Thank you for the WP article, I did not know aobut Zahir al-Umar. There is always something new to learn about Palestine.

revelette3 wrote:
I wonder what the other Arabic nations want to happen with Israel and Palestine? Do they think the Arabs and Palestinians who live there now should just give up and emigrate to other countries and let Israel have the whole thing? What country would accept them? Why aren't they saying anything now?


I think the Arab countries that have Palestinian refugees want a settlement of the conflict with Israel complying with the Palestinians' Right of Return.

revelette3 wrote:
Why was the UN mandate necessary at the time?

The UK needed the help of the Zionists in their war effort.

revelette3 wrote:
After the WW2 were the Jewish people persecuted at whatever country they escaped to and so had nowhere to live safely and in peace?

There wasn't persecution of Jewish people in the places where they emigrated to from Europe during and after the war. There were immigration quotas in various countries, e.g. the US, Great Britain, etc.. Many South American countries, notably Argentina, accepted Jewish refuges and immigrants.

https://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/the-surprising-places-jewish-refugees-settled-during-world-war-ii/
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2021 03:15 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
I think the Arab countries that have Palestinian refugees want a settlement of the conflict with Israel complying with the Palestinians' Right of Return.

Israel is not going to comply with an imaginary right that would destroy them.

If the Palestinians ever choose to make peace, the refugees can go live in the new Palestinian state that will be created.
 

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