63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 06:36 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
the Jews despised the Samaritans as heretics, and chose not to travel through Samaria.

The demise of the northern Israelite kingdom caused a fair amount of conflicted feelings in Judah.


Builder wrote:
It also clearly shows the Gaza strip as being either Phillistine (Palestine) or not part of Israel.

Are you suggesting that the Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines (and thus all belong in the Gaza Strip)?

Unfortunately I think it is not the case. It would be cool if it were though. I'd love to be able to say that all Palestinians belong in Gaza.

The Palestinians are more likely to be the descendants of the Edomites or Moabites.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 07:21 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The Palestinians are more likely to be the descendants of the Edomites or Moabites.


This is factually untrue. We (i.e. Scientists in Israel) have analyzed DNA from people in the region. The Palestinians and the Israelis have the same genetic ancestors.

Religious mythology has the purpose of stoking up hatred. The reality is that these people both have the same ties to the land because they are all Caananites from before the Bronze Age. Tthe Biblical stories of the origin of Abraham, and the captivity in Egypt are all myths as shown by modern archeology and DNA science.

This may come as a surprise to many people, but the burning bush, the Red Sea parting, the talking donkey, the world wide flood and even the talking snake, didn't actually happen. They certainly don't justify the current violence in the Middle East.

oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 07:57 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This is factually untrue.

Science says otherwise.


maxdancona wrote:
We (i.e. Scientists in Israel) have analyzed DNA from people in the region. The Palestinians and the Israelis have the same genetic ancestors.

What a coincidence. The Israelites, Edomites, and Moabites also share the same genetic ancestors.

They were all Canaanites during the Bronze Age. Then after the global collapse of Bronze Age society, each became independent Iron Age cultures.

There are also a couple other Iron Age descendants of Bronze Age Canaan, but I didn't feel like looking up the full list.

On the other hand, if you want to deny that the Palestinians' ancestors had any presence in the ancient world, perhaps I shouldn't stand in your way.


maxdancona wrote:
Tthe Biblical stories of the origin of Abraham, and the captivity in Egypt are all myths as shown by modern archeology and DNA science.

Archaeology is quite consistent with a small group of slaves escaping Egypt, picking up religion on their way home, then providing inspiration (with their story of escape and new religion) to the survivors of the collapse of the Bronze Age.

And I'm pretty sure that DNA doesn't contradict this in any way.


maxdancona wrote:
This may come as a surprise to many people, but the burning bush, the Red Sea parting, the talking donkey, the world wide flood and even the talking snake, didn't actually happen.

Talking donkey??

People have come up with natural phenomena that could explain the story of the Red Sea.


maxdancona wrote:
They certainly don't justify the current violence in the Middle East.

The need to defend against Palestinian aggression is all that is required to justify smashing the Palestinians.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 08:01 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The Palestinians are more likely to be the descendants of the Edomites or Moabites.

Upon considering Max's arguments against my position, I concede that it is much more likely that the ancestors of the Palestinians did not exist as any Iron Age culture whatsoever.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 09:44 pm
@oralloy,
You haven't read the Bible much.

The Bible is very clear about the ancestry of the Jewish people, and DNA and archeology disagree with this.

And yes, there was a talking donkey. I will let you look it up yourself.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 09:47 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

Upon considering Max's arguments against my position, I concede that it is much more likely that the ancestors of the Palestinians did not exist as any Iron Age culture whatsoever.


That doesn't make any sense.

My point is that the Jews and the Palestinians have the same genetic ancestors. Unlike the Biblical Account the common ancestors of moden Jews and modern Palestinians were indigenous to modern day Israel.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 10:42 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15894769_10211889158768845_6550864488571191749_n.jpg?oh=1187a81355e29452a0cecfb8cdb70e64&oe=58DCB7FD

Actually, the argument is that the Zionists are occupying the land east of the Green Line in Palestine and that they are denying the Palestinian's their Right of Return. It's about the Zionists' oppression of the Palestinians.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 10:45 pm
@izzythepush,
They conclude:
We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula…
So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 11:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It's not as simple as that. The Jews that are genetically close to the Palestinians are the Mizrahim, the Jews of the Middle East. The Ashkenazim, the ones who conceived of Zionism, are more closely related to Europeans, mostly Southern Europe. Their ancestors were largely the Hellenic Jews that populated the Eastern Mediterranean Basin. Very few of them exhibit haplotypes that originated in the Middle East let alone Palestine.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 11:26 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
That doesn't make any sense.

You claimed that the ancestors of the Palestinians were never one of the Iron Age cultures descended from the Bronze Age Canaanites. I am merely agreeing with you.


maxdancona wrote:
My point is that the Jews and the Palestinians have the same genetic ancestors.

Their ancestors were Bronze Age Canaanites.

Later, in the Iron Age, the Palestinians and the Israelites were two separate populations. The Israelites formed a robust Iron Age culture of course.

Your point was that I was wrong to say that the ancestors of the Palestinians were also a robust Iron Age culture alongside the Israelites after the two populations separated.

I agree. After the Palestinians diverged from the Israelites, there is no reason to grant them any sort of cultural significance.


maxdancona wrote:
Unlike the Biblical Account the common ancestors of moden Jews and modern Palestinians were indigenous to modern day Israel.

Yes. In Bronze Age Canaan.

But then the Palestinians diverged from the Israelites. The Israelites subsequently formed a robust Iron Age culture in the West Bank area. The Palestinians as you say went on to become nobody.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 3 Jan, 2017 11:28 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You haven't read the Bible much.

Maybe so. I do have opinions regarding accurate Biblical translation though.


maxdancona wrote:
The Bible is very clear about the ancestry of the Jewish people, and DNA and archeology disagree with this.

That depends. Textual analysis shows that the most ancient part of the Bible is the part where the slaves escaped across the Red Sea.

Archaeology shows that before the Hebrew deity was a big hit in Israel, it was a localized deity off in the desert, right where escaped slaves might encounter it on their way home.

It seems quite plausible that a small band of slaves escaped, converted to Judaism on their way home, and then proved to be a popular inspiration in the chaos after the collapse of Bronze Age society.


maxdancona wrote:
And yes, there was a talking donkey. I will let you look it up yourself.

I'll pass.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 07:37 pm

It looks like Israel will soon be annexing all land west of the Security Fence.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.766618

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.765878

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-hard-liners-emboldened-by-trump-push-for-west-bank-territory-grabs/

Time for the Palestinians and the demented freaks who support them to start wailing and whining. The Palestinians are finally going to get what they deserve.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 11:11 am
@oralloy,
Even Trump Can’t Stay Silent as Israel Runs Amok in Settlements
Quote:
For an entire week the White House mulled how to react to the torrent of announcements from Jerusalem on building thousands of housing units in the settlements. The Trump administration’s statement Thursday night – the team’s first significant comment on the issue – was crafted diplomatically and politely, but the bottom line was perfectly clear. Not only is the Iranian government on warning – so is the Israeli government.
[...]
Trump is basically reverting to George W. Bush’s policy on the settlements. That is, Donald Trump’s final goal is an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement based on a two-state solution. ...

According to the statement, construction in the settlements “may not be helpful in achieving that goal.” The limits Trump discussed are similar to Bush’s – opposition to the establishment of new settlements and a willingness to accept construction in existing settlements only within their current borders. ...

The meeting between Netanyahu and Trump on February 15 will be crucial for what happens next. The U.S. president is aiming for progress in the peace process and will wait to hear how Netanyahu proposes doing this.
The White House statement was a warning that he should show up with the goods. Netanyahu and his cabinet have seen how Trump behaves with leaders he believes are standing between him and his goals. The last thing Israel needs is for Trump to hang up the phone on Netanyahu, declare that talking to him is a waste of time or tweet about how he’s expecting payback for the funding Israel receives from Washington.

ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 11:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It wasn't the announcement I was expecting.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/03/trump-to-israel-settlements-may-not-help-achieve-peace-in-middle-east.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/03/donald-trump-warns-israel-new-settlements-may-not-help-achieve/

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-newsnow-israel-idUSKBN15I1FE

___


longish, interesting analysis

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38856289

in summary

Quote:
US Jewish concerns

There are other factors in the mix. One that is little discussed outside Jewish circles is the ever-more complicated relationship between American Jews and Israel.

Most of them did not vote for Mr Trump. And while they remain strong supporters of the Jewish state, many are fearful at the rightward drift in Israel and indeed in their own country.

Underlying this is a denominational issue - most US Jews come from the progressive strands of the religion - but the Israeli government does not defend their interests, because it seeks to placate the Jewish Orthodox establishment in Israel.

Rabbi Eric Yoffie, a former head of the Reform strand of American Judaism, told me that "these differences are already leading to an erosion of support for Israel because of religious issues and religious extremism in Israel. I think this is deeply troubling", he says.

"In some ways," he adds, "it is more important than the political differences having to do with peace and settlements and so on."

In my week-long trip to Israel I came away with a pervading sense of unease, even among the most enthusiastic supporters of the Trump presidency.

Nobody knows quite what he will do.
Builder
 
  0  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 09:52 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Nobody knows quite what he will do.


Therein lies both the problem, and the interest.....

An unscripted chapter in the US oligarchy.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 10:53 pm
@maxdancona,
How many present day Isralies came from Europe or the US.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 10:59 pm
Quote:
Nobody knows quite what he will do.


Nothing but shoot off his mouth much like his heroes Putin and Neitenheu.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  0  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 11:17 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
How many present day Isralies (sic) came from Europe or the US.


The wealthiest-ever diaspora of Jewish people actually came from Iran, to the US of A, directly after the popular people's revolution in the late 1970's.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 11:22 pm
@Builder,
This dosent answer my question. I guess I'll get off of here and google it.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Fri 3 Feb, 2017 11:28 pm
Those of European and American ancestry make up about 2.2 million (36%) of the Jewish population while Africans fill out another 14.5% and Asians are 11.2%.
 

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