Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@revelette1,

And tRump and his kids can help them build homes on palistainian land if they let him build a few gambling joints on it too.

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@revelette1,

Kerry spoke today about the settlements that will squash any peace in that region. Might as well get used to the idea that the US will continue to support Israel while they break international laws.
None of our country's president has any backbone or ethics. Even Obama who is supposed to be a Constitutional lawyer ignored his education.

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/16950

I have visited Israel two times, and saw that Palestinians do not have the freedom to travel in their own country. Israelis have armed check points on the roads, and Palestinians have green license plates. They are restricted from using many roads, and must travel unnecessary long distances to travel to many places.

Our small travel group had the opportunity to talk with a young Palestinian woman in Jerusalem. Her family has lived there for many generations, but do not enjoy the freedom to travel any place they wish without government approval. That's a democracy?

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@Walter Hinteler,

It's not the first time Sauron has declared war on Middle Earth.

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Blatham left a good piece from the NYT on this subject. I am not so knowledgable on the specifics and I didn't know what Israel really wants in the end for Palestinians. If correct, Israel has no intention of ever making a honest peace deal with the Palestinians.

Quote:

What could be the endgame, if it does not include a Palestinian state? Mr. Kerry warned that without a two-state solution, Israel faces a choice between being a Jewish state and a democracy. If Israel annexes the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, this logic goes, Palestinians, many of whom are Muslims, would become the majority in the resulting state of Israel. At that point, Israelis could give these Palestinians full rights as citizens, thus diluting the Jewish character of their nation, or deny them rights and forsake democracy.

But the Israeli far right has long imagined a different scenario: Egypt would be somehow induced to take control of the Gaza Strip, while Israel would hold most of the West Bank and somehow offload the bulk of its Palestinian residents into Jordan. Jerusalem, presumably, would be entirely under Israeli control.

source

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Do you consider just those 15 delegations of the Security Council to be Nazis

Yes.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

or their governments (whose orders the diplomats followed)

Yes.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

or the nations they represent?

In part.

I'm sure there are also plenty who are horrified by the rampant anti-Semitism in their countries. I hope these people one day manage to restore human decency to their countries.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Edited: certainly you mean neo-Nazis.

I'm not sure that I recognize a difference.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

No he doesn't, that would involve reasoning.

I do happen to be the smartest person that you've ever talked to....

izzythepush wrote:

The fact that he can call anyone else a Nazi shows he has no understanding of irony whatsoever.

Americans have an inherent inability to understand the meaning of irony.

But no. As it happens, enough UK culture has rubbed off on me that I have managed to understand the meaning of irony.

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@revelette1,

I would feel better about the Obama/Kerry gratuitous shift on Israel if it was also accompamied by an more seld consistent policy with respect to The threat Islamist terrorism and potential conquest (if they had the power) that faces the West today. Instead we have seen "red Lines" ignored by our hapless President; the ongoing slaughter in Syria; and the wholesale admission by executive fiat of large numbers of refugees many of whom will, like others who preceeded. them are. or will become. radicalized to acts of terror here. This has already occurred to a sufficient extent to pake the thread undeniable.

The situation in Europe is a good deal worse in that they have no apparent will to defend themselves or their culture; they are much closer physically to the threat; and in the cases of Britain and France and Italy, they are dealing with the legacy of their own colonial past.

There's little doubt that Israel has conveniently hidden behind Palestinian intransigence to steadily absorb more and more of the teritory of the West Bank that they seized during the 1967 war. There's also little doubt that the Palestinian intransigence would have continued no matter what Israel did. Any Palestinian leader who signed a deal with Israel, no matter how good it might be, would likely be assasinated without delay.

A very difficult situation. I believe Obama's recent vengeful act did more harm than good, and I fear that an excessive counter reaction by Trump could further the damaqge.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Kerry spoke today about the settlements that will squash any peace in that region.

Nazis always like to blame Jews for the violence that is perpetrated against them.

cicerone imposter wrote:

Might as well get used to the idea that the US will continue to support Israel while they break international laws.

Well since Israel isn't doing anything wrong, you indeed might as well get used to the US supporting Israel.

cicerone imposter wrote:

I have visited Israel two times, and saw that Palestinians do not have the freedom to travel in their own country.

The Palestinians don't have their own country. They were only to be given it when they agreed to peace, and they refuse to agree to peace.

Probably someday the Palestinians will have a country consisting of Area A alone. Then they will be able to drive to their hearts content so long as they stay within Area A.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

The fact that he can call anyone else a Nazi shows he has no understanding of irony whatsoever.

This line by Izzy who throws around the term fascist like it's candy.

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@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

Blatham left a good piece from the NYT on this subject.

LOL!

revelette1 wrote:

I am not so knowledgable on the specifics and I didn't know what Israel really wants in the end for Palestinians. If correct, Israel has no intention of ever making a honest peace deal with the Palestinians.

Israel has repeatedly made honest peace offers to the Palestinians, only to have the Palestinians respond by murdering Israeli children, followed by assorted Nazis around the world making outrageous accusations that Israel never made the peace offers.

Israel eventually got sick of this treatment, and they've now given up on the peace process, but given the way they've been treated who can blame them?

Quote:

What could be the endgame, if it does not include a Palestinian state? Mr. Kerry warned that without a two-state solution, Israel faces a choice between being a Jewish state and a democracy. If Israel annexes the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, this logic goes, Palestinians, many of whom are Muslims, would become the majority in the resulting state of Israel. At that point, Israelis could give these Palestinians full rights as citizens, thus diluting the Jewish character of their nation, or deny them rights and forsake democracy.

Israel has no intention of annexing the Gaza Strip or any part of the West Bank that is east of the Security Fence.

Quote:

But the Israeli far right has long imagined a different scenario: Egypt would be somehow induced to take control of the Gaza Strip, while Israel would hold most of the West Bank and somehow offload the bulk of its Palestinian residents into Jordan. Jerusalem, presumably, would be entirely under Israeli control.

Not a bad outcome. But more likely will be at some point the Palestinians will unilaterally declare their state. At that point Israel should just use military force to constrain the Palestinian state to Area A alone.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Kerry spoke today about the settlements that will squash any peace in that region.

Nazis always like to blame Jews for the violence that is perpetrated against them.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Might as well get used to the idea that the US will continue to support Israel while they break international laws.

Well since Israel isn't doing anything wrong, you indeed might as well get used to the US supporting Israel.

cicerone imposter wrote:
I have visited Israel two times, and saw that Palestinians do not have the freedom to travel in their own country.

The Palestinians don't have their own country. They were only to be given it when they agreed to peace, and they refuse to agree to peace.

Probably someday the Palestinians will have a country consisting of Area A alone. Then they will be able to drive to their hearts content so long as they stay within Area A.

That's bullshit. The reason they are upset is because the Israeles slowly and methodically kept encroaching into their land.

Saying this bullshit about not having papers to prove their nation state is just plain absurd. Its no different then saying the Europeans who settled in North America are justified killing and taking the land from the Native Americans because they didn't have papers to prove their nation state. Its just plain silly.

To put this into perspective, you might as well put on the Empires uniform and promote the dark side as the good guys because that is essentially what you are doing.

The western news media has a slant bias against Palestine and twist the news to make Israel look like the victims when it's the other way around. Israel has tanks and riffles while the Palestinians have stones and sticks.

Imagine if Mexicans pushed into the US slowly every day and walked up to American homes and told the owners to get the hell out and don't come back. You don't think there would be some anger created by that? Because that is exactly what Israel is doing. Its wrong and to say the Palestinians don't have papers to prove their nation state is just asinine.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

There's little doubt that Israel has conveniently hidden behind Palestinian intransigence to steadily absorb more and more of the teritory of the West Bank that they seized during the 1967 war.

Yes, but they've been right to do so.

The converse of "land for peace" means that if Israel doesn't get peace they get to keep the land.

georgeob1 wrote:

There's also little doubt that the Palestinian intransigence would have continued no matter what Israel did. Any Palestinian leader who signed a deal with Israel, no matter how good it might be, would likely be assasinated without delay.

A very difficult situation. I believe Obama's recent vengeful act did more harm than good,

I agree with all points there.

georgeob1 wrote:

and I fear that an excessive counter reaction by Trump could further the damaqge.

I don't know. I think doing some damage may be a good thing. If Israel starts taking some actions to defend themselves, people will be less likely to make these outrageous attacks against them.

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@Krumple,

I guess they should have agreed on the terms of the 1948 creation of Israel instead of siding with the other Muslim nations and attacking them. Israel and the Jewish people have been under attack since WWII when the Nazi's tried to exterminate them and this has only continued into the modern day. Israel has a right to exist and they shouldn't give an inch of ground until the Muslim nations and people agree to their right to exist, until that happens I back Israel and their right to be. Obama of course is on the side of the people who wish to see Israel stopped and pushed into the sea. His every action since taking office has shown this to be true.

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@Krumple,

Krumple, Some people believe they have better information than the international community that declared the Israeli settlements as illegal under international laws.
I'm sure the same people defending the Israeli takeover of Palestinian lands would also allow them to take their land in the same manner.
Yea, sure.

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@Baldimo,

Do you see any middle ground there Baldimo?

You can accept Israel's right to exist without supporting their expansion of settlements on occupied territory.

Your argument fails to accept this fact.

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@Baldimo,

Jewish extermination by Nazi Germany doesn't grant the Jews the right to steal other people's property. Logic 101.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

That's bullshit.

I am confident that you cannot point out any facts that I am wrong about.

Krumple wrote:

The reason they are upset is because the Israeles slowly and methodically kept encroaching into their land.

If the Palestinians wanted that land, all they had to do is agree to peace when it was being offered.

The reason the Palestinians are upset is because they like to murder people and Israel won't let them murder anyone.

Krumple wrote:

Saying this bullshit about not having papers to prove their nation state is just plain absurd.

If there is no problem with the Palestinians not having a declared state, that only means that their pretenses about wanting such a state was just another excuse to try to murder innocent Israelis.

Krumple wrote:

Its no different then saying the Europeans who settled in North America are justified killing and taking the land from the Native Americans because they didn't have papers to prove their nation state.

No one is saying that Palestinian lack of papers justifies Israel keeping the land for themselves.

What justifies Israel keeping the land for themselves is the fact that the Palestinians refuse to make peace.

Krumple wrote:

To put this into perspective, you might as well put on the Empires uniform and promote the dark side as the good guys because that is essentially what you are doing.

No, what I am doing is defending Israel from awful anti-Semitic attacks.

Krumple wrote:

The western news media has a slant bias against Palestine and twist the news to make Israel look like the victims when it's the other way around.

It isn't the other way around. Palestinians are murderous thugs and Israel is merely defending themselves from their aggression.

That our media likes to focus on facts is hardly a bias.

Krumple wrote:

Israel has tanks and riffles while the Palestinians have stones and sticks.

And rightly so. We WANT the good guys to be well armed and the evil scumbags to be unarmed.

Krumple wrote:

Imagine if Mexicans pushed into the US slowly every day and walked up to American homes and told the owners to get the hell out and don't come back. You don't think there would be some anger created by that? Because that is exactly what Israel is doing.

No, that isn't even remotely what Israel is doing. The Palestinians were repeatedly offered their own state if they agreed to peace. The reason Israel is now keeping the land is because the Palestinians refuse to make peace.

Krumple wrote:

Its wrong and to say the Palestinians don't have papers to prove their nation state is just asinine.

The notion that the Palestinians' supposed desire for a state was just a ploy for them to murder more people has a ring of truth to it. It's just the sort of thing a Palestinian would do.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Jewish extermination by Nazi Germany doesn't grant the Jews the right to steal other people's property. Logic 101.

There is no theft here. The Palestinians refused to make peace and now Israel gets to keep the land.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Jewish extermination by Nazi Germany doesn't grant the Jews the right to steal other people's property. Logic 101.

There is no theft here. The Palestinians refused to make peace and now Israel gets to keep the land.

Just like if Native Americans step off the reservations they forfeit their reservation land? Makes sense if you put on your evil goggles I guess.

This argument is silly. Its like you have a playground of children and their is a peace agreement between the bully's (Israel in this case) and the other children. But instead of the bully's p punching the other children they just poke them in the chest every day until they get fed up and fight back. But then the bully's claim the other children broke the peace agreement so now they are justified in punching them in the face again.

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@Krumple,

Your analogy is broken. Israel didn't start any of this and it goes back all the way to 1948 when Israel was created, you can't limit the understanding of a Peace Treaty to just what Israel does, you have to look at the entire history of the nation. Liberals refuse to look at the history of Israel and the wars that have been fought to destroy the Jews.

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Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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