Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Hardened career soldiers know women can be combatants . For a draftee, or someone's first time in combat, it can be a very harrowing and horrifying experience .

Can be so. But I wasn't quoting the reports (and meaning others, not quoted by me) from somewhere and about "a draftee, or someone's first time in combat" but actually to those mentioned Israeli veterans. (Staff Sergeants, Lieutenants, Captains, at least one Colonel just on the first pages, ten years services ...)

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The freaks are planning another flotilla.

My advice: Laser-guided 500-pound bombs dropped from fighter jets should be particularly lethal to civilian watercraft, and shouldn't cost very much either.

Cheap and easy.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

The freaks are planning another flotilla.

The only source for that is a report by Ma'an Palestinian news agency from last Friday.

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Just to supplement Walter's articles:

Israeli veterans say permissive rules of engagement fueled Gaza carnage

Quote:

TEL AVIV — The war last summer between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip left more than 2,100 Palestinians dead and reduced vast areas to rubble. On Monday, a group of Israeli veterans released sobering testimony from fellow soldiers that suggests permissive rules of engagement coupled with indiscriminate artillery fire contributed to the mass destruction and high numbers of civilian casualties in the coastal enclave.

...

The testimonies in the report are anonymous and impossible to independently verify. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) declined to address details in the report and said that Breaking the Silence “does not provide IDF with any proof of their claims.”

...

In an interview with The Washington Post, a young tank gunner whose testimony is included in the report described how he and others fired cannon and machine gun bursts at random travelers on a main Gaza highway simply because they were bored and wanted to prove how good their aim was.

“I am ashamed of this,” said the 21-year-old, who served in a Hamas hot spot near the town of Al Bureij in central Gaza.

“War crime is a big word,” he said in an interview at a Tel Aviv apartment Sunday. “I didn’t rape and kill anybody, but yeah, I shot at random civilian targets sometimes, just for fun, so yeah.”

...

In other testimonies, soldiers recalled that doors, houses and even sheep were booby-trapped with explosives and that once an old man was sent toward troops as a suicide bomber.

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@Walter Hinteler,

The emotions are generated by the poor poor pitiful civilian dogma whereas the truth about women and children fighting in the Middle East makes everyone suspect as a soldier . If they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, shoot them . How many civilians were refugees during that time ? Clearly people only stayed around a combat area if they were fighters , you can walk out of that area in half an hour .

As for the comments from experienced soldiers, they have to be read with the poor civilian bias or they will simply come across as standard rules for a free fire zone .

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@InfraBlue,

I can not and will not defend war crimes but I do urge equality for both sides . If you believe the Palestinians, they were civilian casualties all .

That the rules of engagement seemed lax to some Israeli soldiers is an indication of how high those standards usually are, but free fire zones are common in a war zone .

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Even more interesting (for me, at least) your definition of 'cold war', both time period as well as geographically.

Anyone familiar with the Cold War can sort out what is what . I included as complete a list as possible as your question was about aircraft being shot down, though there are still some missing and it doesnt include military clashes .

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@Ionus,

Your hyperbole aside, I doubt the Palestinians say that the old man suicide bomber was a civilian casualty.

The issue is the poor judgement employed by the IDF in determining these free fire zones of theirs given the heavily populated areas in which they made these designations.

The ICC will surely be looking into these testimonies in their war crimes inquiry of Israel and Hamas.

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

The issue is the poor judgement employed by the IDF in determining these free fire zones of theirs given the heavily populated areas in which they made these designations.

You have ignored that any refugee can walk for a couple of minutes and they are out of the danger area . If the walk for half an hour they are well and truly safe . Unless you are saying they werent given enough time, then you have no argument .

Quote:

Your hyperbole aside

Where have I exaggerated ?

Quote:

I doubt the Palestinians say that the old man suicide bomber was a civilian casualty.

Ok, thats an opinion, but do you know ? Exactly how many did Hamas say were military or did all the military run away and not help the civilians to evacuate ?

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

The ICC will surely be looking into these testimonies in their war crimes inquiry of Israel and Hamas.

You dont really think Hamas will hand over terrorists do you ? What about Muslims makes you think they will turn on their own ?

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@InfraBlue,

You're wasting your time, all the reasonable supporters of Israel went a long time ago leaving behind the unreasoning bigots. They want to blame the Palestinians for everything because of the crime of living there before the Zionists arrived. Equally they spread the lie that Israel can do no wrong. People like Ionus and Oralboy have an ambivalent attitude towards human rights/life, and will lie, ignore facts and accuse others of being bigots because that's what they are, and assume it's part of the human condition.

They only know racism and hatred, and simply can't comprehend sympathising with a persecuted people, it's not in their DNA.

I get the feeling Ionus sees war crimes and crimes against humanity as one of the perks of being a soldier.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

The ICC will surely be looking into these testimonies in their war crimes inquiry of Israel and Hamas.

They might look into it, but your hopes of seeing innocent Israelis sent to prison on false charges will come to naught.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

I get the feeling

Dear Ms dizzythe tush
Of course we are all familiar with your feelings, you have nothing but . One day you might want to try logic . I know it doesnt make you FEEL all powerful and righteous and indignant, but it gets more respect in the long run .

You only fitted bigot in twice that time, what happened to the rule of three ? Arent you feeling well ? Your prejudice is legendary even for the internet . I get the feeling you were toilet trained with a barbed wire seat and a stock whip .

Have you asked yourself why you are so right and others are so wrong ? No ? Maybe that would be a start .
Best wishes...

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

But I wasn't quoting the reports (and meaning others, not quoted by me) from somewhere and about "a draftee, or someone's first time in combat" but actually to those mentioned Israeli veterans. (Staff Sergeants, Lieutenants, Captains, at least one Colonel just on the first pages, ten years services ...)

Who are anonymous . Until they come forward this is all bullshit anti-Israeli propaganda .

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
The ICC will surely be looking into these testimonies in their war crimes inquiry of Israel and Hamas.

They might look into it, but your hopes of seeing innocent Israelis sent to prison on false charges will come to naught.

Actually I take part of that back. I will be very surprised (and more than a little outraged) if the ICC looks into that testimony.

I expect the ICC to rule that Israel prosecutes their own war criminals and therefore is not subject to ICC prosecution.

Anything other than that will be justification for Israel prosecuting ICC officials for their persecution of Jews.

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Ask yourself what so many civilians were doing in the front line when the weather is good, they dont have to go cross country, thousands did leave...the Arabs have done this trick before . Put civilians in harms way, usually against their will, and scream "oh horror, horror!" when they get killed . Worth lots of political points, especially if they are children . The PLO killed more of their own people then the Israelis ever did, and add to that the Hamas murders...yeah, lets have a War Crimes Commission but be fair .

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Ask yourself what so many civilians were doing in the front line when the weather is good, ...

Since you've been to Gaza, you will have noticed the living situation there: 5045 persons per km².
(I haven't been there but only know about it from people of our local churches who visited their twin parishes there. And from tv-report due to the Papal visit.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

Since you've been to Gaza,

You make too many incorrect assumptions . I have not been there .

Quote:

you will have noticed the living situation there: 5045 persons per km².

Can you please just state your point and stop all this hinting . It isnt clever...tell people exactly what you mean .

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Since you've been to Gaza,
You make too many incorrect assumptions . I have not been there .

Obviously I misunderstood you. You have described the situation in Gaza very knowable and detailed, and since you found an English newspaper there, I've thought so. My bad.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
you will have noticed the living situation there: 5045 persons per km².
Can you please just state your point

See my above post. Sorry again

1 Reply

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

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