63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:22 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
That is stock standard for a war zone . There are designated areas where it is shoot first . Every war since WW2 has those areas .

So I must be really very, very happy that none of my relatives were shot dead on March 29, 1945 and the following days!!!
Quote:
“Anyone found in an IDF area, which the IDF had occupied, was not a civilian. That was the assumption,” one of the soldiers stated.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:24 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Have you found any Palestinian criticisms of the way they fought the war, starting with murdering 3 teenagers ?
I don't know daily Palestinian newspaper which are published in English - but I'm on subscription to the English editions of two from Israel.
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
So I must be really very, very happy that none of my relatives were shot dead on March 28, 1945!
Why do your posts have a strange vague quality to them ? You can be very very happy if you want . I have no idea what you think that has to do with wars and declared no-go zones for civilians which are also free fire areas for the military . Did the German Army respect civilians ? The Boer War had areas where civilians would be presumed enemy and shot on sight, so did Vietnam, Korea, the Malay Emergency, British Palestine, Hong Kong during the Cold War, Germany during the Cold War...hard to list them all really....

Your selectiveness belies your anti-Jewish stance . Do your Palestinian Pals announce to clear an area before firing a rocket ? Your one sided racial nature has been seen before .
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Go to Gaza...walk up and down with a placard that says down with Hamas and see how long you last . You are being a hypocrite . Put your life where your mouth is .
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
From above quoted source:
Quote:
An infantry soldier recalled an incident in which a force identified two suspicious figures walking in an orchard, only a few hundred meters away. The lookouts couldn’t immediately identify them, so a drone was sent up to take a look. It was two women walking through the orchard, talking on cell phones. “The aircraft took aim at these women and killed them,” he said. A tank company commander who arrived afterward to check the area found the bodies of the two women, who were both over 30 and unarmed.

According to the soldier, the fact that the women were carrying only cell phones was reported to the battalion commander. Despite this, in the reports written afterward, the women were classified as “terrorists” – lookouts who were operating in the area. “[The tank commander] left and we moved on. They were counted as terrorists. They were shot, so it’s clear they were terrorists,” he said.


From wikipedia:
http://i58.tinypic.com/34ss5d2.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:39 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Your selectiveness belies your anti-Jewish stance .
Why do quotes from a Israeli newspaper mean that I am anti-Jewish? Why is having a different opinion than the actual Israeli politics related to religion?
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Do you understand what those cell phones were ? The women were combatants . Never heard of female combatants ? Why are western armies putting our women on the front line if you havent approved of it ? Can you imagine allowing civilians to walk up to your lines and tell everyone on a cell phone what your positions are ? Maybe the Israelis could use you at the tactical level, another example of it being possible for you to put your life where your mouth is...
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You are anti-Jewish because you refuse to acknowledge that whatever crime you may think the Israelis are guilty of, Hamas is a terrorist organisation and you say nothing about it to balance your expressed opinion . Where are the newspapers published in the Gaza strip that criticise Hamas ? Where are your quotes from them ?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:50 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
The Boer War had areas where civilians would be presumed enemy and shot on sight, so did Vietnam, Korea, the Malay Emergency, British Palestine, Hong Kong during the Cold War, Germany during the Cold War...hard to list them all really....
Just out of personal interest: where had there been war zones during the cold war? And who shot when and where there civilians?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:52 am
@Ionus,
Okay. I can imagine that those reports from the soldiers having been there are wrong.
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Hong Kong was shooting at anyone crossing the river, as these were usually elite communist troops out to kill sentries .

East Germany shot many civilians crossing the wall or swimming the river . Both the allies and communists shot down civilian aircraft .

Is that enough or do you need more ?
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:58 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I dont think those reports are wrong . I think they are by inexperienced soldiers, new to combat and full of the poor poor civilians dogma . They sent those enemy female bitches to heaven where they will get 72 female virgins and be a martyr ...well done Israelis !
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 06:59 am
@Ionus,
Just to clarify: I've been a committee member of our district's youth committee for the "Zentralwohlfahrtsstelle der Juden in Deutschland (ZWST)" (Jeiwsh social security agency) for two legislative periods, until I retired from my job as a social worker.

As I already wrote above, I don't know Gaza daily newspapers in English. I would be pleased, if you gave my a link to your sources.
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 07:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I'm surprised that a man of your compassion and experience can not see how siding with a terrorist organisation is a bad idea .

To the best of my knowledge, NO-ONE criticises Hamas in the Gaza Strip without being killed for it which has been the fate of many hundreds, perhaps thousands . In June last year, a joint Hamas-Fatah government took power, but I will bet they still do not allow criticism . There are English Palestinian Newspapers, I only found one in Gaza, and again, I bet you will never read a bad word about Palestinians in it .

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 07:19 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
East Germany shot many civilians crossing the wall or swimming the river . Both the allies and communists shot down civilian aircraft .
I suppose, with "East Germany" you mean the GDR.
I do know that they shot those, who wanted to flee the country. I didn't know that it was a war zone.
I'm stupid enough not to know about those shot down civilian aircrafts.
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 07:21 am
Given the nature of the Middle East, you can either be on the side of a Democracy or on the side of the Muslims which includes terrorist groups like Hamas . In a Democracy, you will find criticism of the regime if the democracy is alive and healthy...where do terrorists or Muslims allow criticism ?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 4 May, 2015 07:21 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
I think they are by inexperienced soldiers, new to combat and full of the poor poor civilians dogma .
Since most of those reports are online, why do you think so?
Ionus
 
  1  
Mon 4 May, 2015 07:44 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Given the deaths from both sides and their proxies, I dont know how one can think of the Cold War as not being a War .

Quote:
I'm stupid enough not to know about those shot down civilian aircrafts.
Walt, you are definitely not stupid and I can not accept you saying that .

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1556036/timeline-tragic-history-civilian-airliner-shootdown-incidents
Quote:
Cathay Pacific VR-HEU, July 23, 1954. Chinese PLA Air Force jets shot down a DC-4 airliner operated by Cathay Pacific Airways on a flight from Bangkok to Hong Kong, killing 10 of the 19 people on board.

El Al Flight 402, July 27, 1955. Bulgarian Mig jets shot down an El Al flight from Vienna to Tel Aviv via Istanbul, after the propliner strayed into Bulgarian airspace and refused to land. All 58 crew and passengers on board the Lockheed L-049 Constellation were killed.

Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114. February 21, 1973. The Boeing 727 flying from Tripoli to Cairo was shot down by Israeli fighter jets over the Sinai dessert. All but four of the 112 people on board were killed. The Israeli air force intervened after the Boeing flew over military facilities in the Sinai, then occupied by Israel. Israeli authorities said fighters opened fire when the plane refused to land.

Korean Air Lines Flight 902, April 20, 1978. Russian fighter jets shot down the Boeing 707-321B plane en route from Paris to Seoul after it entered Soviet airspace and failed to respond to the Russian communications. The plane made an emergency landing on a frozen lake. 107 passengers and crew survived, and two passengers were killed.

Air Rhodesia Flight RH825, September 3, 1978. A Vickers Viscount 782D flight from Kariba to Salisbury, Rhodesia (now Harare, Zimbabwe) was shot down by Zimbabwe People's Revolution Army guerrillas. Eighteen of the 56 passengers on board survived, but ten of the survivors were killed by guerrillas at the crash site.

Air Rhodesia Flight RH827, February 12, 1979. Also a Vickers Viscount en route from Kariba to Salisbury, again downed by Zimbabwe People's Revolution Army guerrillas. All 59 passengers and crew were killed.

Aerolinee Itavia Flight 870, June 27, 1980. A DC-9 belonging to the now defunct Italian airline Itavia, flying from Bologna to Palermo with 81 people on board, exploded in mid-flight near the island of Ustica, off Sicily. The hypothesis that a missile was fired in error by American or French fighter jets was denied by Washington, while the French defence ministry refused to comment.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007, September 1, 1983. A South Korean Boeing 747 belonging to Korean Air was shot down by Soviet fighter jets over the island of Sakhalin, after veering off course. Some 269 passengers and crew members were killed. Soviet officials acknowledged five days later that they had shot down the plane.

Iran Air Flight 655, July 3, 1988. The Airbus A-300 carrying 290 passengers and crew from Bandar Abbas, Iran to Dubai in the United Arab Emirates was shot down by the US Navy cruiser USS Vincennes, which misidentified the airliner as an Iranian fighter jet. The US and Iran reached a compensation agreement with the Iranian victims' families in 1996, but the US has never admitted responsibility nor apologised to Iran.

Transair Georgian Airline Shootdowns, September 1993. Three airliners belonging to Transair Georgia were shot down by missiles and gunfire at or near the Sukhumi Airport in Abkhazia, Georgia. A total of 136 passengers and crew members were killed.

Antonov An-24RV. Flight LN 602, September 29, 1998. The Antonov An-24RV crashed into the sea off the north-western coast of Sri Lanka after departing Jaffna-Palaly Air Force Base on a flight to Colombo. All 55 people on board were killed. Initial reports indicated that the plane had been shot down by the Tamil Tigers rebels.

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, October 4, 2001. A Tu-154 plane en route from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk in Russia crashed into the Black Sea, killing all 66 passengers and 12 crew. It is suspected to have been hit by S-200 surface to air missile, fired from the Crimea peninsula during an exercise by the Ukrainian military.

Balad aircraft crash, January 9, 2007. An Antonov An-26 chartered by a Turkish construction company carrying cargo and passengers crashed while attempting a landing at Balad Air Base in Iraq. Witnesses claim they saw the plane being shot down, and a terrorist group, the Islamic Army in Iraq, claimed responsibility. Thirty four of the 35 passengers on board were killed.

A Belarussian cargo plane that was shot down by insurgents over Mogadishu 23 March 2007 during a third straight day of clashes with Ethiopian troops propping up the Somali government. The Il-76 crashed in the outskirts of Mogadishu, Somalia, killing all 11 Belorussian civilians on board. Witnesses claim they saw the plane shot down. Somalia insists it was an accident.

Boeing 777, Malaysia Arilines flight MH17, which crashed during flying over the eastern Ukraine region near Donetsk, Ukraine . 17 July, 2014. The Boeing 777-200 carrying 298 passengers and crew crashed near Donetsk in eastern of Ukraine, killing all on board.
Ionus
 
  0  
Mon 4 May, 2015 07:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Hardened career soldiers know women can be combatants . For a draftee, or someone's first time in combat, it can be a very harrowing and horrifying experience . Anyone who doesnt recognise what women talking on cell phones might be doing is clearly inexperienced .
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 4 May, 2015 08:08 am
@Ionus,
Interesting list, thank you.
Even more interesting (for me, at least) your definition of 'cold war', both time period as well as geographically.
 

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