63
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 06:29 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
From a declassified report on the US American Department of Defence website as published via The Independent in 2005
Quote:
"Iraqi forces loyal to President Saddam may have possibly used white phosphorus chemical weapons against Kurdish rebels and the populace in Erbil and Dohuk. The WP chemical was delivered by artillery rounds and helicopter gunships."

Has discredited nonsense started trumping reality?

If not, WP still isn't a chemical weapon.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 07:04 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
If not, WP still isn't a chemical weapon.
It is similar to bow and arrow. And that's why the USA and Israel didn't sign the Geneva Convention (1977) about it.
oralloy
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 07:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
It is similar to bow and arrow.

Not that I can see.

But bows and arrows are legal weapons too.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
And that's why the USA and Israel didn't sign the Geneva Convention (1977) about it.

I think the convention on incendiaries was in the 1980s.

Both the US and Israel complied with the convention despite not being a party to it.

And the US is now signed up to it. It's one of the first things Obama did when he took office in 2009.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 07:38 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

I think the convention on incendiaries was in the 1980s.

Both the US and Israel complied with the convention despite not being a party to it.

And the US is now signed up to it. It's one of the first things Obama did when he took office in 2009.
It's in the Article 35 of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Convention.
Neither the USA nor Israel signed - whatever you write here. (Source)
oralloy
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 08:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
I think the convention on incendiaries was in the 1980s.
Both the US and Israel complied with the convention despite not being a party to it.
And the US is now signed up to it. It's one of the first things Obama did when he took office in 2009.

It's in the Article 35 of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Convention.

No. The treaty on incendiaries is its own separate document. From 1980. (Entry into force in 1983.)

http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Treaty.xsp?documentId=1E37E38A51A1941DC12563CD002D6DEA&action=openDocument


Walter Hinteler wrote:
Neither the USA nor Israel signed - whatever you write here. (Source)

I was referring to the actual treaty on incendiary weapons.

The reason the US did not sign this 1977 treaty likely has to do with our objection to it relaxing the requirements that all enemy fighters wear a proper uniform.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 08:46 am
@oralloy,
My bad. Sorry, it is the (Protocol III) 10 October 1980
Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 10:52 am
@oralloy,
Hey Usato, you got followers in the middle east:

Palestinian 'Revenge' Attack Victim Was Burnt Alive, Autopsy Shows Burns Covered 90% of Mohammed Abu Khdair's Body

By Ali Sawafta

(Reuters) — Initial autopsy findings from the body of an East Jerusalem youth who Palestinians believe was kidnapped and killed by far-right Jews showed that he was burned alive, the Palestinian attorney-general is reported as saying.

“The direct cause of death was burns as a result of fire and it’s complications,” Mohammed Al-A’wewy was quoted as saying by Palestinian official news agency Wafa late on Friday.
oralloy
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 07:03 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Usato

I hope that, if the Kerchers succeed in stealing any of Raffaele's inheritance, they end up losing their houses when he reclaims it.

I imagine somewhere there's a home with Meredith's bedroom kept all pristine and "just as the day she left it". Would be awesome to see TV footage of the Kerchers getting evicted. Twisted Evil
oralloy
 
  1  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 07:18 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
My bad. Sorry, it is the (Protocol III) 10 October 1980

Mr. Obama is also moving the US closer to signing the landmine ban (though has not signed it yet).

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/28/us/us-to-cut-its-land-mine-stockpile.html
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Mon 14 Jul, 2014 09:30 pm
@oralloy,
You never fail to serve...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 04:16 am
Excerpted from Drawing Fire: Investigating the Accusations of Apartheid in Israel with permission of the publisher, Rowman & Littlefield by The Daily Beast:
Quote:
Don’t Accuse Israel of Apartheid

Israel is not a perfect state, but it is nothing like apartheid South Africa, says a writer who has lived in both countries.

Living in apartheid South Africa, as I did, was easy in moral terms. Living in Israel, as I do now, is difficult.

In apartheid South Africa the choice was clear and beyond escape: it was good versus evil. Apartheid, apartness, which meant racial segregation and discrimination enforced by the white minority on the country’s black, colored and Asian peoples, was wrong and inhuman, denying freedom and stunting and destroying lives. The problem for concerned people was not merely to do the obvious thing and reject apartheid, but to decide what to do about it. That is, how far to go in opposing it against an increasingly tyrannous government: from being a passive bystander to imperiling your liberty, even life.

In Israel, the moral choices are many and complex and are a daily challenge. Each of the two main competing groups, Jews and Arabs, has right on its side, through history, land, religion, geography, and tradition. The dilemma is how to satisfy their separate demands and aspirations for a tiny piece of land. The problem is bedevilled because in the long struggle between them, neither side has always behaved well, inflicting death and destruction on the other.

Each side believes that it is in the right, and each side fears and rejects the other. Jews and Arabs are a mirror image of each other: each believes that force is the only language that the other understands; each believes that the other is trying to wipe it out. That there is some truth in these beliefs on both sides adds to the complexities.

I have had to struggle to relate the image of the pure and beautiful Zionism with which I grew up to the reality of Jewish behavior, which at times is inhumane and beyond toleration and which has grown worse with Israel’s occupation of the West Bank/Judea and Samaria and the spread of settlements.

The ugly reality must not be denied, as some do from the standpoint that Israel can do no wrong or that it must be defended at all costs against its enemies. Anti-Semitism is certainly a factor behind some of the attacks on Israel, but it must not be overstated, as some do, as a means of counterattacking. The Holocaust is inextricably bound up with Israel’s existence, but it must not be misused, as some do, as an emotional weapon to silence genuine critics.

At the other extreme, Israel’s failings and mistakes must not be used, as some do, as an excuse—even more, a cover—for condemning Israel to the extent of denying its very right to exist.

Israel’s accomplishments are wondrous; but it is not a perfect society and its people sometimes behave badly and violate their moral standards, like people anywhere in the world. They must be judged and treated the same as other people and countries. None of it has lessened my belief in Zionism or the imperative of Israel as a home and sanctuary for Jews.

Israel is accused of being "like apartheid South Africa" or it is the "new apartheid" or it is "reminiscent of apartheid" or it "resembles apartheid" or it is "tantamount" to apartheid or it has "elements" of apartheid or it perpetrates the "principle" of apartheid, or it is even "worse than apartheid.” These phrases are used mainly in regard to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, but some critics also apply them to Israel itself.

They are more than mere words: the obvious aim is to have Israel declared as illegitimate a state as was South Africa and hence open to international sanctions. And even more, at least for some, to deny the validity of its existence.

If the apartheid accusation is correct, then Israel merits harsh condemnation. For it to be an apartheid state would be a betrayal of the Jewish ethics that underpin its existence, of the dreams of its founders, and of the words of the Declaration of Independence of May 14, 1948: "The State of Israel . . . will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice, and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex…"

Use of the word apartheid in the world has broadened and softened, referring to just about anything that means separation. In Cuba, the ban on tourists staying at swank hotels was labelled as "tourism apartheid" before it ended in 2008. A ban on some bathing costumes on Brazil’s beaches was described as "bikini apartheid." In Britain, bans on same-sex marriages were described as "a form of sexual apartheid." The fact that racial minorities, especially blacks, are the majority in U.S. prisons has been called the "New American apartheid."

However, even with all this, the word remains powerful and continues to convey the evil that it was in South Africa. It’s a grave charge to level against Israel and, if correct, would justify international sanctions to punish it and to pressure it to change.

But is Israel the new apartheid state? Merely saying so doesn’t make it so.

Repeating the phrase over and over doesn’t make it true, but is merely primitive

propaganda used either out of ignorance or malevolence.

Israel is a victim of such propaganda. Within its pre-1967 war boundaries its Arab minority, 20 percent of the population, suffer discrimination but enjoy full citizenship starting, crucially, with the vote. It is not remotely apartheid.

On the West Bank, the Israeli army is in occupation and Palestinians are victims of cruel and unjust actions. But there is none of the institutionalised racism basic to apartheid. Applying the apartheid label is incorrect—and is also confusing because it obscures the tyranny which is in force.

Excerpted from Drawing Fire: Investigating the Accusations of Apartheid in Israel with permission of the publisher, Rowman & Littlefield. All rights reserved.

Benjamin Pogrund was a journalist with the Rand Daily Mail in Johannesburg for 26 years and pioneered the reporting of black politics and existence under apartheid. He was deputy editor when the newspaper was closed because of its opposition to apartheid. He has lived in Jerusalem for more than 16 years and has worked to promote dialogue across lines of division.
Foofie
 
  1  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 01:01 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
So, let's give IG Farben back to German Jews. That would include all the post WWII spin-off companies. Got a Bayer aspirin?
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 01:27 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
One test of whether Israel is apartheid is its regard for the Palestinians' Right of Return, which Pogrund completely ignores in his apologetic. Israel flatly violates this right in order to maintain a Jewish majority in Israel and maintain a "manageable minority" of Arabs within Israel. Conveniently, Pogrund separates the West Bank as if it was an entity unto itself which is disingenuous because the state of Israel controls it, only allowing the Palestinians a certain amount of autonomous rule, and steadily circumscribes the areas to which it restricts the Palestinians as it arrogates more and more land to annex for itself.

He also parrots the question begging line, "Israel's right to exist" without explaining what affords Israel, apart from all other nations, this special right. People have the right to exist, states do not and history shows the very transitory nature of states.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 01:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
This must be a joke; the writer contradicts himself.
Quote:
In apartheid South Africa the choice was clear and beyond escape: it was good versus evil. Apartheid, apartness, which meant racial segregation and discrimination enforced by the white minority on the country’s black, colored and Asian peoples, was wrong and inhuman, denying freedom and stunting and destroying lives. The problem for concerned people was not merely to do the obvious thing and reject apartheid, but to decide what to do about it. That is, how far to go in opposing it against an increasingly tyrannous government: from being a passive bystander to imperiling your liberty, even life.

In Israel, the moral choices are many and complex and are a daily challenge. Each of the two main competing groups, Jews and Arabs, has right on its side, through history, land, religion, geography, and tradition. The dilemma is how to satisfy their separate demands and aspirations for a tiny piece of land. The problem is bedevilled because in the long struggle between them, neither side has always behaved well, inflicting death and destruction on the other.


The so-called 'long struggle' is the Jews stealing Palestinian property and lands, taking their water, their jobs, their freedoms, their dignity, and killing them.

This is NOT A DILEMMA; they are facts evidenced by international organizations, the UN, and CPT.org.

From CPT.org.
Quote:
'Al-Rajabi Building' Project
CPT is involved in a campaign to prevent settlers from re-occupying Al Rajabi Building in Hebron. Al Rajabi Building was occupied by settlers in 2007. The settlers were evicted in 2008 when the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that some of the documents of sale had been forged. When the settlers were evicted the level of settler violence increased in Hebron and throughout the West Bank.

If a settlement was to be re-established in Al Rajabi Building it would create territorial continuity between the Kiryat Arba and the Settlements in the Old City. Palestinians have been forbidden to drive on the road outside Al Rajabi Building since 2000, however when the settlers were occupying the building greater restrictions of movement were placed upon the Palestinians. History shows us that often the Israeli Defence Forces use the excuse of security to carry out house searches and increase dententions in areas where there are settlements.


0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 02:04 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
So, let's give IG Farben back to German Jews. That would include all the post WWII spin-off companies. Got a Bayer aspirin?
Again, Foofie, I don't get it.
The author of that report is a Jew, but how did you get he is a German Jew? Because he's from South Africa? (Actually, he worked in England and the USA after he left South Africa and before he emigrated to Israel)

And what does the Interessen-Gemeinschaft Farbenindustrie AG (IG Farben) have to do with it? (Bayer was just one of the several owners of IG Farben.)
JTT
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 02:12 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Again, Foofie, I don't get it.


It's Foofie, Walter. He's either offering excuses for USA war crimes and terrorism or Israeli war crimes and terrorism. He's caught between two forces for evil and he seems perfectly content to be there.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 02:18 pm
@InfraBlue,
As said in my quote, this is an extract from his book ... which hasn't been released yet.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 02:25 pm
We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians; without the resolution of conflicts in East Timor, the Sudan and other parts of the world.

Nelson Mandela.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 02:27 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
That would include all the post WWII spin-off companies.
I just look it up again:
-IG Farben existed until 31 December 2012,
- the companies which you call WWII spin-off companies had been the original companies which formed IG Farben in 1925 (Actien-Gesellschaft für Anilin-Fabrikation, Badische Anilin- und Sodafabrik AG [including Ammoniakwerk Merseburg GmbH, Leuna Werke], Farbenfabriken vorm. Friedr. Bayer & Co., Chemische Fabrik Griesheim-Elektron, Chemische Fabrik Kalle & Co. AG, Chemische Fabriken Weiler-ter Meer, Farbwerke Leopold Cassella & Co., Farbwerke vorm. Meister Lucius und Brüning AG.)
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Thu 17 Jul, 2014 02:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Just this claim alone is suspect,
Quote:
all the post WWII spin-off companies
0 Replies
 
 

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