61
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 May, 2014 12:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
So only about 20 % of the Jews in Israel are not secular (or secular acting). Thanks for backing me up.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 May, 2014 12:36 pm
@Advocate,
Some 20 percent of the Jewish population are secular.

From the above given source:
Quote:
Israel's Jews are not divided into two groups but into four: ultra-Orthodox, religious Zionists, traditional Jews, and secular. Some 8 percent are ultra-Orthodox. ...

Another 17 percent are religious Zionists ...

The third group consists of the vast majority of Israeli Jews, some 55 percent, who define themselves as "traditional." ...

The fourth and second smallest group consists of those who define themselves as secular, some 20 percent of the Jewish population. ...

Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 10:08 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Some 20 percent of the Jewish population are secular.

From the above given source:
Quote:
Israel's Jews are not divided into two groups but into four: ultra-Orthodox, religious Zionists, traditional Jews, and secular. Some 8 percent are ultra-Orthodox. ...

Another 17 percent are religious Zionists ...

The third group consists of the vast majority of Israeli Jews, some 55 percent, who define themselves as "traditional." ...

The fourth and second smallest group consists of those who define themselves as secular, some 20 percent of the Jewish population. ...




You might not understand the nuance of the word "traditional." It means, for example, that on the major religious holidays, one might find themselves in a synagogue, in my opinion. Other times they might find themselves amongst the truly secular. So, for all intensive purposes, based on the venue, "traditional" can equate to "secular," in my opinion. And, the variable is that Israel, being a Zionist State, has holidays that correlate to just Jewish religious holidays elsewhere, meaning in Israel no public transportation, no mail, etc.

The comparison that might be correct is a person that says they do not practice Catholicism; however, when a child is born, the child is taken to a priest for Baptism, and then all the other rituals (a la Bar Mitzvahs). So, a non-practicing Catholic can equate to a "traditional" Israeli, in my opinion.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 10:52 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
You might not understand the nuance of the word "traditional."
I can assure you that I understand the meaning of "traditional".

Could it be that in Israel they have a different opinion about it to yours?

My above quoted source from Jerusalem, Israel, is written by Jewish authors. It isn't about Catholics or Catholism.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 11:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
You might not understand the nuance of the word "traditional."
I can assure you that I understand the meaning of "traditional".

Could it be that in Israel they have a different opinion about it to yours?

My above quoted source from Jerusalem, Israel, is written by Jewish authors. It isn't about Catholics or Catholism.


Israel has a different opinion than mine. So do many other people. It really does not matter, does it? While you are focussing on these small points, it might be that the seeds of discontent are being sowed in the EU, based on yesterday's voting. Much of it might be that the three big EU countries are experiencing a backlash from the "marginal haves" in the EU?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 11:03 am
Foofie, There is no nuance to the word "traditional."

Quote:
tra·di·tion·al
trəˈdiSHənl/
adjective
existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established.
"the traditional festivities of the church year"
synonyms: long-established, customary, time-honored, established, classic, accustomed, standard, regular, normal, conventional, usual, orthodox, habitual, set, fixed, routine, ritual.


Where do you get 'nuance' from this?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 11:08 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Israel has a different opinion than mine. So do many other people. It really does not matter, does it? While you are focussing on these small points, it might be that the seeds of discontent are being sowed in the EU, based on yesterday's voting. Much of it might be that the three big EU countries are experiencing a backlash from the "marginal haves" in the EU?


a) My original post with that mentioned source wasn't a response to any of your posts.
You interfered. So it does matter, since you changed the topic.

b) To what voting do you refer? I'm not aware of any polls in Europe yesterday, or the day before yesterday.
If you are referring to the polls for the European Parliament - those were done last week (depending on country, between Thursday and Sunday).
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2014 09:05 am
Amos Oz calls perpetrators of hate crimes 'Hebrew neo-Nazis'
Writer and Israel Prize laureate says 'hilltop youth' and 'price tag' are whitewashed terms 'for a monster that should be called by its name.'
By Haaretz | May 10, 2014 | 10:52 AM | 23

'Price tag, King David is for the Jews, Jesus is garbage' graffiti on Jerusalem church, May 9, 2014. Photo by AFP

By Uri Misgav | May 30, 2014 | 2:40 AM | 6

The writer and Israel Prize laureate Amoz Oz said on Friday that those responsible for hate crimes against Arabs and Christians are "Hebrew neo-Nazis."

Speaking at a Tel Aviv event marking his 75th birthday, Oz said that terms like "hilltop youth" and "price tag" are "sweet names for a monster that needs to be called what it is: Hebrew neo-Nazis groups."

Oz added that in his mind, perhaps the only difference between neo-Nazis around the world and perpetrators of hate crimes in Israel is that "our neo-Nazi groups enjoy the support of numerous nationalist or even racist legislators, as well as rabbis who give them what is in my view pseudo-religious justification."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2014 09:14 am
@Olivier5,
You wrote,
Quote:
Oz added that in his mind, perhaps the only difference between neo-Nazis around the world and perpetrators of hate crimes in Israel is that "our neo-Nazi groups enjoy the support of numerous nationalist or even racist legislators, as well as rabbis who give them what is in my view pseudo-religious justification."


That's not surprising; this land of so-called 'christians' are racial bigots that looks at blacks no better than slaughter animals. Look at Florida's gun laws, and how whites are able to kill blacks at will without fear of paying for their crimes of murder. All they need to do is speak those magic words, "I was in fear for my life."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 05:42 am
Some updates related to Palestine and Israel:

Quote:
Autopsy reveals Palestinian teen killed by live fire in Nakba Day clashes
Though the official results have not been compiled, sources say entry and exit wounds indicate that Nadim Nuwara was shot dead last month with a non-rubber-coated bullet.

An autopsy of Nadim Nuwara, a Palestinian youth who was shot dead during Nakba Day protests in the West Bank last month, was completed Wednesday, and the findings support claims that he was killed by live ammunition.

According to officials with knowledge of the autopsy, Nuwara’s body was in fairly good condition, so the entry and exit wounds could be clearly identified. The wounds indicate that Nuwara was shot with live ammunition, they say. But the official autopsy report has not yet be compiled. Two experts from the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute in Tel Aviv joined the team at the Palestinian Institute of Forensic Medicine in the West Bank town of Abu Dis for the autopsy. Two experts from the United States and Canada were also present.

[...]

Source

Israeli security forces have consistently denied that border police present at the Nakba Day demonstration used live ammunition, insisting only plastic-coated steel rounds were used. It said it was continuing its investigation.



Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 05:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Five big EU countries press Israel to delay settlement plans
Israel's Civil Administration to go ahead with only 381 of intended 1,800 homes in West Bank settlements; Israeli officials: Technical problems, not EU pressure, led us to delay plans.

Following pressure by Western European diplomats, the Civil Administration decided on Wednesday to delay the recently announced plans to move forward on construction of 1,800 settlement homes.

The only plans approved by the Civil Administration's High Planning Council concerned 381 housing units in Givat Ze'ev. Those involving construction in Ariel, Har Bracha, Alfei Menashe, Oranit and other settlements were put off, along with plans in the settlement outpost Al-Matan.

Planning council chairman Daniel Halimi said he received instructions for the delays shortly before the meeting, and a source who attended the session said, "Apparently the decision came from high up."

On Tuesday, British Ambassador to Israel Matthew Gould and French Ambassador to Israel Patrick Maisonnave told National Security Adviser Yossi Cohen that their countries wanted Israel to hold off on advancing plans for the 1,800 settlement homes, which had been frozen for many months.

Gould and Maisonnave told Cohen that Germany, Italy and Spain would be conveying the same message, which the Italian and Spanish ambassadors did to the Foreign Ministry later that day, while German Ambassador Andreas Michaelis weighed in with Cohen early on Wednesday.
[...]
Source


Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 05:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Israel begins razing Bedouin village of Al-Arakib - for 50th time
Struggle with the state over land ownership has been ongoing since 1998

Israel Police forces and Israel Land Authority workers began demolishing structures in the unrecognized Bedouin village of Al-Arakib in the northern Negev, on Thursday morning. This is the 50th time the village has been razed in the last decade and a half.

The demolition of some 20 structures erected in the village's cemetery began shortly after the Ramle Magistrate's Court rejected an appeal by residents against their expulsion from the village.

Many residents of the village, which has been evacuated numerous times in the past, took refuge in the local mosque, itself built inside the cemetery. The State Prosecutor's Office denied that the structures were in the cemetery proper, saying they were just outside it.

Al-Arakib residents have been waging a lengthy legal battle ever since the village was first demolished in 2010. Notices were posted May 21 informing the villagers of the state's intention to demolish the structures and giving them 21 days to evacuate. Those 21 days expired on Thursday morning.

The villagers maintain that they own the bank on which the village is built and were forcible evicted from their land by the Israel Defense Forces in 1950.

The state argues that the land was taken over by the state in the early 1950s because it had been abandoned and that the attempts to settle it that began in 1998 were illegal. Israeli courts have consistently upheld the state's position.

The Al-Arakib residents continued to erect structures on the site, despite the court rulings. The village was demolished for the 49th time in April 2013.
[...]
Source
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Quote:
Israel begins razing Bedouin village of Al-Arakib - for 50th time
Struggle with the state over land ownership has been ongoing since 1998

Israel Police forces and Israel Land Authority workers began demolishing structures in the unrecognized Bedouin village of Al-Arakib in the northern Negev, on Thursday morning. This is the 50th time the village has been razed in the last decade and a half.

The demolition of some 20 structures erected in the village's cemetery began shortly after the Ramle Magistrate's Court rejected an appeal by residents against their expulsion from the village.

Many residents of the village, which has been evacuated numerous times in the past, took refuge in the local mosque, itself built inside the cemetery. The State Prosecutor's Office denied that the structures were in the cemetery proper, saying they were just outside it.

Al-Arakib residents have been waging a lengthy legal battle ever since the village was first demolished in 2010. Notices were posted May 21 informing the villagers of the state's intention to demolish the structures and giving them 21 days to evacuate. Those 21 days expired on Thursday morning.

The villagers maintain that they own the bank on which the village is built and were forcible evicted from their land by the Israel Defense Forces in 1950.

The state argues that the land was taken over by the state in the early 1950s because it had been abandoned and that the attempts to settle it that began in 1998 were illegal. Israeli courts have consistently upheld the state's position.

The Al-Arakib residents continued to erect structures on the site, despite the court rulings. The village was demolished for the 49th time in April 2013.
[...]
Source


It is established throughout the world that abandoned property goes to the ruling authority. It is silly to think that somehow the Pals retain control of the land beyond the cemetery. Interestingly, the Pals paved over Jewish cemeteries in the WB before the '67 War without pause or regret.

The Pals should recognize the right of Israel to exist, sit down with Israel's leadership, and come to a reasonable settlement.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 11:46 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
It is silly to think that somehow the Pals retain control of the land beyond the cemetery. Interestingly, the Pals paved over Jewish cemeteries in the WB before the '67 War without pause or regret.

The Pals should recognize the right of Israel to exist, sit down with Israel's leadership, and come to a reasonable settlement.
These Pals are Israelis, at least since the early 1960's.
The semi-arid region of the Negev was inhabited by semi-nomadic Bedouin tribes at least since the 19th century.
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 02:26 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
The Bedouin tribes migrated to and from many parts of the Middle East. That hardly gave them title to the lands they passed through.


































Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 02:34 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

The Bedouin tribes migrated to and from many parts of the Middle East. That hardly gave them title to the lands they passed through.


It gives them as much title to the land as people who just came there from other places 60 years ago, Advocate.

Both Jews and Arabs have lived in that area for centuries. To suggest that one has a greater right to it is an absurdity.
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 02:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Wow, I passed through much of Washington, DC. I'm delighted to learn that such travel gave me title to much of the city.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 02:46 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

The Bedouin tribes migrated to and from many parts of the Middle East. That hardly gave them title to the lands they passed through.
You don't know a lot about the history in the Middle East. But the history of these Bedouins is actually well documented ... since the early 19th century, when they founded their first villages. (There's a reason why they are called semi-nomads.)

What really is a bit disturbing in my opinion, is that instead of actual Israeli law Israeli officials refer to Ottoman land regulations of 1858.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 03:02 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Wow, I passed through much of Washington, DC. I'm delighted to learn that such travel gave me title to much of the city.


The Bedouin have been a travelling people for centuries, Advocate...in fact, the name has become synonymous with travelling groups.

ARABS...have been present in that area for centuries...just as have Jews. The land belongs to both people...if presence is the determinant.

And the Arabs and Jews of that area got along relatively peacefully for centuries until the formation of the state of Israel. The variable that is mostly responsible for the escalating difficulties in that area is...the state of Israel.

Not the Jews...not the Arabs...but the state of Israel.

And things will never get appreciably better so long as there is a state of Israel there.



Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2014 03:24 pm
@Frank Apisa,
In 1858, the land where those Bedouins had there villages, was called Mawat (wasteland unsuitable for cultivation) The reason is quite simple: the Ottoman law requiered that the names of landowners be officially recorded.
The Bedouins refused to do so, since doing so would make them subjects of foreign rule. And they would have had to serve in the Turkish army.
Already around 1900, the were called by German Jewish settlers as semi-nomad, and their villages were described in various publications.
0 Replies
 
 

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