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Jews, Israel and the Democratic Party

 
 
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 06:47 am
http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2009/01/jews-israel-and-democratic-party.html

Quote:

There was recently this startling poll from Rasmussen Reports.

Sixty-two percent (62%) of Republicans back Israel’s decision to take military action against the Palestinians, but only half as many Democrats (31%) agree. A majority of Democrats (55%) say Israel should have tried to find a diplomatic solution first, a view shared by just 27% of Republicans.

This division in party affliliation and their view of Israel is only startling if you haven't been paying attention. While Democrats have given some lip service to Israel, it is the Republican Party that is far more pro Israel. In fact, there's never been a President more pro Israel than George Bush. In the last election, the difference couldn't have been more startling in the two candidates views of Israel. Not only was John McCain a proven terror warrior but he has long been unabashadly pro Israel. Barack Obama has no foreign policy record at all and his entire Illinois political career was spent in the company of academics that were pro Palestine.

Yet, for as long as I can remember, the Jewish vote has gone overwhelmingly Democrat. In fact, in both 2004 and 2008, the Jewish vote went Democrat nearly 80%.

There are still many Jewish voters that will tell people that Israel is the number one issue or even the only issue. Make no mistake, they are lying. Jews in America are decidedly secular. By this I mean, they are Jewish in name, or often at parties, or even more often when it suits them. Most Jewish people wind up at synagogue no more than three times a year, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, and Passover.

In fact, the number one issue for most Jewish voters has nothing to do with foreign policy. It is a social issue and it is the issue of abortion. Their secular nature also makes most of the pro choice and often virulently pro choice. In fact, for many Jews, Bush's strong defense of Israel was nothing compared to his even stronger defense of life. That's why despite his being the most pro Israel Presidency, he lost the Jewish vote overwhelmingly.

In my mind, this view is not only ironic but ultimately stupid. It's ironic because it is those in the Democratic Party that often accuse Republicans of appealing to foolish people on social issues. Of course, the Democrats have nothing to offer the Jewish vote besides their unabashed support of abortion. Jewish people are often successful and they are exactly the sort of voters that Democrats punish with tax cuts. The Democratic Party is decidedly more even handed in the Palestine/Israel conflict, just look at the difference between Bill Clinton and George Bush. Clinton offered Arafat 95% of what he wanted whereas Bush wouldn't even meet with Arafat. Yet, because the Democrats are so pro abortion, the secular Jews have thrown in with the party.

It is also stupid because secular or not, Jews risk the extinction of their ethnicity when they get in with anyone that isn't firmly committed to supporting the Jewish state. There is about 12 million Jews in the world. Without a country to call their own, the race faces the real possibility of extinction. Israel is surrounded by 360 degrees by enemies. It is also the scourge of the world. Jews can't count on the rest of the world to support Israel. If the U.S. ever has a President not committed to the safety of Israel, that could be the deathknell for the country. Once the country is destroyed, the religion follows shortly thereafter. Most Jews aren't that religious and so they likely don't feel an affinity to Israel. Make no mistake, enemies of the Jewish religion, of which there are plenty, care not how often we visit a synagogue. They will attempt to destroy each and everyone regardless. It's something for all in the religion to think about next time the get into the ballot box.


 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 08:31 am
@gungasnake,
I can only wonder if our friends south of the border began firing rockets at random into the US what those of our citizens who do not support Israel would what the US governmet to do or not to!

Hell one raid into the US at the start of the 1900s resulted in a very large scale invansion of Mexico by the US military.
gungasnake
 
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Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 08:35 am
@BillRM,
You can look at pictures of Axis cities from 1945 for the quick answer to how the United States reacts to the sort of provocation which Israelis have been suffering from for so long.
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Foofie
 
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Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 12:17 pm
I am Jewish, and I am a Republican. I do know that many Jews identify with the Democratic party. Even for many Jewish males (fairly secular - the majority of US Jews, I believe) the Democratic party is their party, and that is without the abortion issue. Why? I think because it has to do with the perception that many in the prior generations of Republicans were comfortable with restricted hotels and country clubs. In other words, I believe, Republicans have a long history of exclusiveness to live down, before Jews vote en masse for Republicans.

Why then am I a Republican? I just think Republicans have a more focussed desire to keep the U.S. strong and sovereign. I am not so sure about the Democratic party. They, in my mind, might be willing to pander to Europe. Yes, the same Europe that was comfortable, I believe, with the results of the Final Solution. I hope I explained well.
gungasnake
 
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Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 12:24 pm
@Foofie,
I tell people that most prejudices have a useful life of about twenty to twenty five years, i.e. that's about how long it takes for the group of people doing whatever got you pissed off at the organization in question (in this case, the GOP) to retire or otherwise get replaced. The last time it ever made sense for an American Jew to vote for a democrat to my thinking would have been around 1937 or thereabouts.
Foofie
 
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Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 12:36 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

I tell people that most prejudices have a useful life of about twenty to twenty five years, i.e. that's about how long it takes for the group of people doing whatever got you pissed off at the organization in question (in this case, the GOP) to retire or otherwise get replaced. The last time it ever made sense for an American Jew to vote for a democrat to my thinking would have been around 1937 or thereabouts.


I agree with you, but part of Jewishness is "tradition," as sung in Fiddler On the Roof.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 03:38 pm
Gunga, you seem to equate “backing Israel’s policy of massive, disproportionate retaliation” with being pro-Israel…which, to me, is like thinking foreigners who back George Bush’s absurd wars are pro-American.

It is quite possible that most pro-American friends we have are people who are disgusted with the kinds of things America, under the guidance of Bush, Cheney and company, has been perpetrating…and our greatest enemies the people who are applauding those moves. So too, Israel’s best friends may be the people telling them to tone down their responses…and Israel’s worst enemies, the jackasses sitting here safe in the United States offering to hold coats for people going off into battle.

People who prod others into war are not always friends, Gunga…in fact, often they are anything but friends.

America didn’t make itself any safer…and didn’t gain any more friends by foolishly rushing off to bomb people. Neither is Israel necessarily making itself any safer…nor garnering any more friends, by doing what they are doing.
Foofie
 
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Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 04:01 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, you can get the Wall Street Journal's once a week Friday crossword on Friday:
www.wsj.com/lifestyle
It is on the page that you first see. You can choose Interactive mode, or pdf to print off.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 04:36 pm
@Foofie,
Crosswords I've got lots of! More I don't need.
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BillRM
 
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Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 04:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Hmm when a group is trying to kill your citizens in a random way you do what is needed to try to end it.

Second overwhelming force had always been the best way to deal with an enemy as fairness have no place in the battlefield. In fact such overwhelming force normally result in less death on both sides then a more even and long drawn out military operations would.

We used overwhelming force on Japan up to atom weapons and by doing so more then likely in the end save more Japanese lives then if we had instead invaded the home islands with millions of ground troops.

If you can knock some common sense at least in the general population of the area who place those rocket firing fools into power in the first place all for the good.
Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 06:10 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM, you wrote: "Hmm when a group is trying to kill your citizens in a random way you do what is needed to try to end it.

Second overwhelming force had always been the best way to deal with an enemy as fairness have no place in the battlefield."

Okay, Bill, let’s take a look at that:

In the 1940’s Israel used “overwhelming force” to try to stop the killing…and it failed.

In the 1950’s Israel used “overwhelming force” to try to stop the killing…and it failed.

In the 1960’s Israel used “overwhelming force” to try to stop the killing…and it failed.

In the 1970’s Israel used “overwhelming force” to try to stop the killing…and it failed.

In the 1980’s Israel used “overwhelming force” to try to stop the killing…and it failed.

In the 1990’s Israel used “overwhelming force” to try to stop the killing…and it failed.

Now we are in the 2000’s and Israel is using “overwhelming force” to try to stop the killings.

Is there anything about this pattern that would cause you to at least consider that you might be wrong?

Look at it closely!



BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 08:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
If you have fools that keep trying to kill you and seem not to learn their lesson rapidly you do have some limits.

Still some of the largest countries in the area however did in fact learn their lesson that attacking Israel is not a good idea and it only took having their heads handed to them two or three times in major middle east conflicts.

How likely do you think it going to be that Egypt or Syria is going to war with Israel once more?

Force had work in the past and force will work in the future.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 10:53 am
@BillRM,
Bill RM

First of all…I want you to know that I would be as delighted as anyone else on the planet if things could cool down on the Arabian Peninsula…one of the most enduring hot-spots on the planet. I honestly ache for the people living there, Jew and non-Jew alike. It must be absolute hell to know that at any moment killing and maiming will rear its ugly head in your midst.

But as is so often the case, defining a problem and “having a solution to that problem” are two different things.

You are correct when you wrote: “If you have fools that keep trying to kill you and seem not to learn their lesson rapidly you do have some limits. “

Amen!

You are partially correct when you wrote: “Still some of the largest countries in the area however did in fact learn their lesson that attacking Israel is not a good idea and it only took having their heads handed to them two or three times in major middle east conflicts.”

More about why I call that “partially correct” in my next comment.

You wrote: “How likely do you think it going to be that Egypt or Syria is going to war with Israel once more?”

I’d say it is almost certain, Bill. I am shocked you truly think it unimaginable, which seems to be the thrust of the way you phrased the question. In fact, I think the question is “when” they will rather than “if” they will. And I think a further question is: What will serve as its impetus.

The stuff going on right now might be the trigger. The populations of those countries are getting tired of being on the side-lines in what they see to be unwarranted moves on Israels part.

But be that as it may, let me say the main point again:

I’d say it is almost certain both Egypt and Syria will war with Israel again at some point in the future.

You wrote: “Force had work in the past and force will work in the future. “

Force sometimes works, Bill. Seldom does force work over the long run. Force by the Israelis may work to change the direction and methods used to attack Israel…but there is absolutley no reason to suppose the attacks will ever stop. None whatsoever.

In fact, if you are a betting man, I would be willing to bet large sums against you for each year from now until one of us dies…that attacks will come on Israel. I’ll even give you odds. And if you have any very young kids…I’d be willing to extend the bet with my estate for as long as they live.

Sad…terribly sad though it may be…there ain’t enough force in the world that will stop the Arabs from attacking Israel! So long as there is a state of Israel in the Middle East…and any Arabs are still alive there, there will NEVER be anything even remotely resembling true peace there.


Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:24 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Bill RM

First of all…I want you to know that I would be as delighted as anyone else on the planet if things could cool down on the Arabian Peninsula…one of the most enduring hot-spots on the planet. I honestly ache for the people living there, Jew and non-Jew alike. It must be absolute hell to know that


I do not think all six billion people would care if the Middle East had peace. I do think there are some isolated western populations that relish the act of involving themselves in a sovereign country's business. Not for the purpose of being intrusive, but more for the purpose of showing their moral rectitude, I believe.

Do you also "honestly ache" for all the other peoples in the world where "at any moment killing and maiming will rear its ugly head in your midst."?

Somehow, Israel gets a lot of press when they are involved in the ongoing effort to live somewhere that the Muslim religion says a priori is their turf. Expect this to go on for a long time.

But Egypt, in losing the '67 war, also lost 10,000 men I thought. This was what made them accept peace, I read. Every Egyptian family knew someone who was killed. That lesson is a sad commentary as to what was needed to maintain a peaceful neighbor.
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