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Lawsuit over "so help me god" in oath of office.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 12:52 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
You oughta ask the town council of my hometown about what I'd do.

They did "cross me" in a way.

Passed a law requiring leashes for cats.

After lots and lots of back and forth on the issue...and with them deciding to go ahead with the law...I told them I would bring national attention to their idiocy.

They laughed at me...at a township meeting.

Usually only 5 or 6 people at any meeting. When the vote came up...I managed to get over 200 people there...and remote trucks from the CBS and ABC stations in New York City. They also sent trucks to my house to interview me.

The New York Times sent a reporter and photographer over...and did a half page story on the front page of the second section.

Newsweek Magazine gave me a full page MY TURN to discuss is, complete with a picture of me...and a $1000 stipend.

So, NO...I would not just sit and pray.

But if a guy wants to take an oath and use Zeus or Athena or whatever...I say go for it. And if someone wants to sue about it...I say go for it again.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:54 pm
@Phoenix32890,
So then do you believe that any type of reference to God or a creator should be stricken from our founding documents?
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 10:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Local government goes crazy. I was asked to take down a poster saying "Peace on Earth and goodwill to all Men" at Christmas, on the grounds that it was sexist.

I told them to take God to court and sue him, as it was his quote.

The point is, laws are meant to help people lead better lives, I respect your right to have a cat not on a leash as long as you respect my right to chase it off my property. We don't need the government involved. I'll even sell you cat visitngs right for a fee. We can negotiate.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 10:13 pm
@mysteryman,
Does it help anyone if they are there? If not get rid of them. I find it absurd that Americans treat the Constitution like it was handed down by god. It was written by a group of all white,all male slave traders.
Its a pretty document, with lovely signatures.
The world has changed since then. History should be studied and the past respected, But when used as part of government. NO!!!!!
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 05:21 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Then why is the national anthem of the UK "GOD save the Queen"?

Why are there references to God in many of the important historical documents of the UK?

You are being hypocritical.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 08:23 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Quote:
I find it absurd that Americans treat the Constitution like it was handed down by god. It was written by a group of all white,all male slave traders.
Its a pretty document, with lovely signatures.


And you're an ass free to spew whatever you wish, despite the fact that is based in biased and utter ignorance.

This sort of anti-Americanism that is akin to telling good ole Dad to **** off is pathetically jeuvenille.

Fountofwisdom my ass. Fount of immature, hyped up pseudo-intellectual hormones is more like it.

You and all of your fellow punk-ass, self-perceived free radicals are nothing but a pathetic joke.

If you had any intellectual integrity or gravitas you would be pointing your scorn towards the real bad actors on the world stage and not taking this slovenly childish avenue of anti-Americanism.

For kids like you the crime of America is that it doesn't rise to your romantic expectations or the bravado of Amercians that just frosts your own nationalist asses.

North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, Burma, Ubekistan, The Congo, Zimbabwe, The Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Turkmenistan, Libya, Swaziland, Eritrea, Belarus, Cuba, Syria, Laos and Vietnam to name but a few.

I guarantee that you and your fellow clowns have either rarely or never criticized these governments while you rant about the demon that is America.

It is the same sort of oatmeal minds and souls who scream bloody murder over Israel's actions in Gaza and ignore the undeniable evil of Hamas that wants Palestinian civilians to be killed so they can strike a victim's pose on CNN ---- fifteen minutes after they strike a pose of holy warriors bent on death and destruction; firing weapons in the air and ca;;ing for a bloody Day of Wrath.

You and your kind are such rubes and precisely what media savvy scum like Hamas count upon.

If my contempt for you is showing... good, because it is heart felt.

The only mitigating factor of your posts is that you are probably just a silly child and so may yet, with time and experience, allow your mind to consider what is right over what you perceive as "cool."

Perhaps you don't, personally, deserve this intensity of scorn, but I am sick to death of the fools that populate God's green earth, and you seem to be following in their footsteps.




Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 11:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Britain has criticised all the regimes mentioned. You resort to Idiocy. I have never defended the British National Anthem, I am part of a campaign to get it changed.
This seems to be how Americans argue. Forget what has been stated. Rant idiocy and then throw round random insults.
Regarding that long list of countries.
Saudi Arabia: Death of a princess scandal, Britain condemns Saudis for torure and execution. America steps in to help Saudis.
Sudan: all efforts effect intervention are vetoed: by America.
North Korea: this evil regime is bank rolled by America.
Cuba is one of the best states in the Caribean. It is blockaded for no reason by a cruel neighbour. This illegal act would have been condemned but for America.
Zimbabwe has been criticised by Britain and a trade boycott started, sadly one idiotic bunch refuse to join the trade embargo: America.
Vietnam? you're joking right. Vietnam is a lot better since the American were kicked out. You get you're politics from Rambo.

It seems Americans are unable to put a coherent argument together.
Perhaps the American educational system doesnt help. Watch the rest of Sesame st.
I mean what kind of half-wits put in god we trust on their currency.
You ignore all the points I'm making, in that the constitution was written before industrialisation, by people who were trying to line their own pockets.
I am not anti-American, I am anti idiotic government. I feel that the election of Obama may herald a new age of modernising the backward US.
I hope I'm not disappointed
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 11:38 pm
@mysteryman,
Britain has no seperation of church and state. Luckily Britain doesn't have a religious right. Religion in Europe is an archaic institution. Britain has no compulsory oaths to god.
Things like abortion, gay marriage, homosexual rights, embryo research arent controversies here.
America is seen a bit like theocratic Iran. A Christian version.
I personally would consider America a great country if it lived up to even a small fraction of its constitution. But it doesnt. it has abandonned habeas corpus, starts wars, has no health care, prevents the country being a proper democracy by keeping its citizens ignorant. You get my drift.
0 Replies
 
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 11:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Your assumptions are incorrect, as would be expected, based on no information except you own bigotry: this is typical of the idiotic American style of debate.
I have no hatred for you. Just your opinions. i wish you'd stick to the point.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 08:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn...since we disagree so completely in other areas, allow me to take this moment to be one with you on this reply. (Please do not reconsider just because I am agreeing!;-})


Fount...what is it with this anti-American nonsense. You claim to be an intelligent individual. Why are you grouping and painting with such a broad brush? Not the kind of thing one expects from a 160 IQ at all!

And not all the signers of the Constitution of the United States were slave traders. In fact, that I know of, none of them were.

Some were slave owners...and some were not.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 09:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
I thought you were part Brit? I am trying to provoke debate. I've found it pointless to discuss anything on here. I've found Americans just resort to abuse.
They won't discuss anything. I can understand why obnoxious shock jocks are popular.
The main thrust of my point holds: who the hell were the founding fathers to pronounce on anything. To be fair they made an attempt but surely a critical review is in order.
All the signatories to the constitution owned slaves. That is a historical fact. I thought I said owning not trading,thats what I meant.
I think people are too polite with religious people. I think Americans get very defensive about their country: I think it is a sign of insecurity.
Amongst reasonable people I will behave reasonably. Read Finn Da Buzz's posting and see which points aren't abuse: I am trying to debate but I'm not given a lot to work with.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 09:27 am
@Fountofwisdom,
I am not a Brit...I am an American who spent two wonderful years in England.

And I am a reasonable person...given to lively, spirited, intelligent debate (and an occasional wise-ass shot)...who really doesn't enjoy being called some of the things you are calling ALL Americans because of the generalizations I just called to your attention.

You seem, Fount, to be complaining about things American...in posts filled with the things you complain are American failings.

Surely you see that!

I AM AN AMERICAN...and I am completely willing to discuss or debate damn near anything with you...so that you can appreciate that Americans, just like the Brits, can discuss and debate with reason and intelligence.

Whatta ya wanna talk about?

C'mon. Take a break from the bitching...and actually discuss something.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 09:33 am
By the way...it is not an historical fact that all signatories to the constitution owned slaves.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 04:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
As I see it i have tried to discuss things at every opportunity. I am a member of a group of academics who advocate Democracy: this includes many Americans. I accept that these aren't representative being exclusively Democrats.
I got annoyed by a lot of the posts claiming I didnt know the system: I covered the election for our discussion board. A lot of the posts are very abusive: I have been involved in politics, I know sometimes you have to fight for the right to be heard.
I accept your point about not generalising. America is a big country: with many different cultures: I'm sure a New Yorker would have more in common with a Londoner than say a midwest farmer.
My argument with religion is that it is so ingrained into the culture that we have forgotten how daft it is. If someone claims to be a UFOlogist then we ridicule them immediately. However if someone claims they have religious convictions for believing something then we accept it.
Lets say the constitution were to be written today. It is written by a bunch of all white all male New Englanders. My argument is they weren't representative. Not even of New England. I accept times were different, but I think No taxation without representation is a good standard.
Heres an example of religion from Canada. Someone posted " A man who sleeps with another man as tho he were a woman should be put to death.
He was taken to court for inciting murder, and homophobic hate crimes. He pointed out he was quoting the Bible. Even the sensible Canadians couldn't prosecute him, they came up with a daft compromise along the lines of: it's Ok to be homophobic and racist as long as you are quoting the Bible.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:54 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
And you're an ass free to spew whatever you wish, despite the fact that is based in biased and utter ignorance.


Finn, is this then to be taken as your promise never to comment on language issues without first giving them something more than a few seconds of thought.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 07:24 pm
@Fountofwisdom,
Not sure where you were going with this last post directed to me, Fount.

There is nobody on this planet who has had more debate with theists than I about what I consider to be the absurdity of theism and religion...and what I often refer to as "the cartoon god of the Bible."

I have no idea of why that is coming into play in our discussion here...because I am an implacable foe of religion second to no one.

I will say this: Since I am with cyber friends here, I am committed to discussing the issue of religion without some of the harshness and ferocity I’ve brought to discussions of this type in the past.

I can tell you that I will attempt to remain civil not only with them…but with the atheists, with whom I am in even greater disagreement.

In any case, I took issue with you assertion that “all signers of the Constitution were slave owners.” (This was a revision of a previous assertion that all were slave traders!)

I pointed out that the revision is as incorrect as the original statement.

Not all the signers of the Constitution were slave owners…and some were vociferously anti-slavery and abolitionists.

You still haven’t addressed that.





Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 08:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Some, and Washington was the most prominent example, felt trapped by slavery. In the late 1750s, he came to the conclusion that slavery was not a paying proposition, especially as it involved the monoculture of tobacco (and later, of course, cotton--to feed the greed of English mill owners) which destroyed the soil. He diversified his crops, hired many white workers (with whom he was about as displeased as he was with lazy blacks) and paid all of his workers, including the blacks, so that they would have an incentive.

But he had a problem. If he manumitted his slaves, they would be adrift in a world in which they were not prepared to make their way, and they would be a prey to unscrupulous men, and very likely would be spirited away into slavery again. Furthermore, half or more of the slaves at Mount Vernon came when he married Martha Dandridge Custis, and neither he nor she owned the slaves--they were held in trust for the two surviving children of Martha's previous marriage to the late Daniel Parke Custis. So, although many men might simply have ignored this, and dealt with the property Martha brought to the marriage as their own, which was the custom of the day, George carefully husbanded the resources of that legacy for his stepchildren. Of course, within a few years, some of the slaves he had inherited from his half-brother Lawrence Washington when he inherited Mount Vernon had "married" former Custis slaves, and to free some, while unable to free others, would have broken up families, apart from all the other resentments which it would have entailed. It was illegal for him to educate his slaves, so that was not a recourse for him.

Furthermore, Washington's quandary was enhanced when both "Patsy" (Martha Parke Custis) and her brother John Parke Custis died. This left a minor child as heir to most of the estates, and the rest the property of his wife Martha. If he made manumission conditional upon the decease of the estate owners, then some slaves would remain in slavery, the property of his stepgrandson George Washington Parke Custis, who had been born the same year his father died, and was literally a babe in arms at the time issue arose, while others would not only be manumitted (his slaves), but others would be awaiting the death of Martha to be freed. He didn't want to give the remaining slaves a motive for the murder of Martha, which could easily have been accomplished by poisoning.

At the time of the death of "Jacky" Custis, he left an estate of more than 18,000 acres and almost 300 slaves to his infant son. On his own account, Washington had about 300 more slaves. His eventual solution was to "retire" those slaves who were unwilling to work for the modest wage he offered, and to pay pensions to them all out of his personal estate. Those pensions were paid well into the 1830s, more than 30 years after Washington's death.

For the details of this dilemma and its solution, see George Washington: A Biography (published posthumously), Douglas Southall Freeman, seven volumes, Scribner, New York, 1948-1957; and, Anguish and Farewell, the last of four volumes of the life of Washington, (James) Thomas Flexner, Little Brown, New York, 1972. Both Freeman's entire biography, and the final volume of Flexner's biography were Pulitzer prize winners.

Others of the founders had fewer qualms, apparently, such as Thomas Jefferson, who neither manumitted nor made any special provisions for his slaves. However, as Frank has pointed out, not only were not all of the signers slave owners, i'll go further and point out that the majority were not slave owners.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 09:01 pm
@Setanta,
Once again, Set...very informative...and an easy read.

Thanks.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 01:52 am
@Frank Apisa,
I am willing to concede that they weren't all slave owners, if you concede that a group of all white all male new Englanders aren't representative of America.
The Native Americans certainly weren't asked. I'll check on which ones didn't own slaves. If any.
Also that there views on how a modern: i.e. industrialised country should be run.
Satans anus again has googled an interesting study of Washington: however as it doesn't mention the words constitution, first amendment or god it is completely irrelevant. I am glad you found it an easy read.
My argument is based on the first amendment itself. God has no place in government. Oaths are archaic. Accountability and scrutiny are better.
Fountofwisdom
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 02:05 am
@Frank Apisa,
Have checked up historical sources for the assertion on slave owning.

Abraham Lincoln can be quoted as "most of the signatories owned slaves."
Left wing sources tend to maintain all the signatories owned slaves.
Right wing sources "history of the white race" also claim that most owned slaves and this was a good thing.
No one contends that the 55 were a representative sample of anything. I am happy to side with Abe Lincoln as a compromise if this moves the debate on.
0 Replies
 
 

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