Is Chirac to be believed?

au1929 wrote:

Chirac should stick the French troops up his--. He should just get out of the way and stop being an obstacle in the UN.

Well, the US use the right of 'veto' quite frequently themselves (actiually more often than France did). An obstacle in the UN, yes.

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I know the French are widely despised in America, but how do you think many French see the US at the moment?

They warned you about the dangers of going into Iraq. They refused to help with Bush's war, but he went ahead anyway. Now he's facing exactly the dangers they warned about, and Bush is coming to them asking for support.

The French will come round in time. But not until the message of the new situation gets home, perhaps even to the American public.

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It is worth noting at this point that this is at least the third thread by AU which i've seen dedicated to French-bashing. In another, he admitted that he hates the French.

Grain of salt, anyone?

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Powell was under intense pressure to make the UN "thing" work. When he was able to obtain French support for the first UN resolution the implication to him was that their support for a second UN resolution would be forthcoming. Now whether or not Chirac (thru De Villepin) gave any verbal assurances to Powell will never be known but Powell interpreted the French support as being assured and when it was not with the French announcement that they would use their veto----well that was a real "bomb" to Powell. He lost a lot of credibity with the public and within the "Hawk" community of the administration which of course they were happy about----it is my belief that he never lost any credibility with Bush personally.

Just like the WMD thing, this is all history and of no relevance except in the future diplomatic dealings with France-----As AU says they can be expected to talk out of both sides of their mouthIMO.

I personally believe we should insist on a re-write of the UN charter to give it some teeth. It is a pitiful irrelevant organization now but the only organization where international voices can be heard. A global economy demands a global gov't type organization similar to a federal gov't with states. But that's another thread.

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Setanta
Correct I have no use for the French. However, that dislike has not been related to Chirac and therefore can not have influenced their actions.

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Perception wrote

"He (Chirac) gave Powell assurance of French support on a second resolution before the war"

When asked how Perception knows this he replied

"the implication to him (Colin Powell) was that their support for a second UN resolution would be forthcoming"

So the answer is that it is Perception's assumption about an implication that was conveyed by Chirac to Powell.

Or alternatively it was a guess.

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Quote:

Now whether or not Chirac (thru De Villepin) gave any verbal assurances to Powell will never be known but Powell interpreted the French support as being assured and when it was not with the French announcement that they would use their veto----well that was a real "bomb" to Powell.

I've looked up several newspaper archives:
Chirac always ha stated that a war against Iraq can take place only under UN authority.
That was seen very different from saying that it cannot take place at all, which is/was the German position.
I doubt that Powell made by this the interpretation, Perception knows of.

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Steve wrote:

Even if it was true, (which I very much doubt) the French were never given a chance to honour or dishonour their "promise" because the motion was withdrawn by the Brits before it even came to the vote, remember?

The threat of a veto was absolute so the resolution was withdrawn and the war started thus dimishing the power play by the French as meaningless. Chirac is not a fast learner as now evidenced by his backpedaling. He tried the same ludicrous power play again.

When the Iraqi industries are auctioned off shortly France will have the same opportunity as everyone else-----I'll be curious to see what kind of gamblers they are.

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As I remember it, the resolution was withdrawn because it was clear there was not enough support on the security council. US/UK were prepared to see it go down by a French veto (and dismiss that as perverse) but not to risk it failing to get a majority. So the resolution was withdrawn, the Americans and the Brits implemented their war plans, and the French got the blame. Quite a neat trick really.

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No --- I think a better description would be "hardball diplomacy". The French were thereafter perceived as merely presenting obstacles in the path of progress and are now on the verge of losing all credibility but still they persist. Chirac is on an "ego trip" and his country is suffering for it .

BTW since you and so many posters here are so concerned about the humanitarian aspects of the war in Iraq and elsewhere in the world due to the lack of compassion on the part of the US. What are your comments regarding the deaths of 15,000 French senior citizens because their families and the French gov't couldn't be bothered. That's roughly 3 times the number killed on both sides in Iraq. Let's talk about the compassion or lack thereof---do either you or Walter wish to comment on that or do you only get motivated when you have a political axe to grind with the US?

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Quote:

BTW since you and so many posters here are so concerned about the humanitarian aspects of the war in Iraq and elsewhere in the world due to the lack of compassion on the part of the US. What are your comments regarding the deaths of 15,000 French senior citizens because their families and the French gov't couldn't be bothered. That's roughly 3 times the number killed on both sides in Iraq. Let's talk about the compassion or lack thereof---do either you or Walter wish to comment on that or do you only get motivated when you have a political axe to grind with the US?

I thought we went over all of this a couple of weeks ago. Rolling Eyes

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What are your comments regarding the deaths of 15,000 French senior citizens because their families and the French gov't couldn't be bothered

Well it was exceptionally hot. The French government cannot be blamed for hot weather. The freak temperatures were a symptom of climate change, brought about by the world wide use of fossil fuels, the most profligate polluter of course being the USA.

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Well, I think it's all a U.S.-British-Illuminati conspiracy, and the heat wave in France was a test of a new 'Merican weapon. The crowned heads of Europe, GW Bush, and the whole shebang....it's all connected! Oops, thought I was some other lupine force there for a sec....phew! Note: Don't invest in Bordeaux futures this year, the fruit is all gonna be "cooked".

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Lol

The freak temperatures were a symptom of climate change, brought about by the world wide use of fossil fuels, the most profligate polluter of course being the USA.

How stupid of me----the 15000 deaths were the fault of the USA Laughing

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Italy's health ministry is attributing 4,200 deaths to the heat, but it also admits 34,071 people over the age of 65 died from July 16 through Aug. 15 and the 4,200 is just a guess based on that four-week period. It has not even looked at deaths in the final two weeks of August.

The Netherlands say 1,400 died of heat-related issues there.

Portugal is estimating 1,300.

British officials say 900 died there.

... ... because their families and the French gov't couldn't be bothered.

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How stupid of me----the 15000 deaths were the fault of the USA

Glad it made you laugh Perc, you were complaining that I only ever wrote critically of the US, well I managed to pin that one on you! (ps it wasn't meant absolutely seriously)

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Steve:

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Walter

Those numbers are shocking especially in Italy----I know it was hot in England also but it would appear that the English system is considerably better than that of the French or maybe they just care more about their parents.

My comment about the families and the gov't not being bothered was generated by reports that a very high percentage of the families of those that died were on holiday and didn't even come home for the funerals(great advertisement for socialistic tendencies). It's obvious that the gov't shuts down if everyone is on holiday therefore could not respond to the needs of it's citizens (another great advertisement for whatever form of gov't they have). Crying or Very sad

:wink:

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perception wrote:

Walter

Those numbers are shocking especially in Italy----I know it was hot in England also but it would appear that the English system is considerably better than that of the French or maybe they just care more about their parents.

My comment about the families and the gov't not being bothered was generated by reports that a very high percentage of the families of those that died were on holiday and didn't even come home for the funerals(great advertisement for It's obvious that the gov't shuts down if everyone is on holiday therefore could not respond to the needs of it's citizens (another great advertisement for whatever form of gov't they have). :wink:

perception

I've ben in England during the record heath there: they had more technical problems (e.g. no trains running).

re "socialistic tendencies": you seem to forget that the majotity of Frenchmen (and women) is conservative (which isn't only to be seen by the conservative government and the conservative president!).

In most European countries, everything is 'shut down' during the holiday period - from Sweden to Malta, from Potugal to Turkey, ehem, Greece, I mean. :wink:

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Flash
Bush adds France to the Axis of evil list. A regime change is inorder. Chirac must go. He has been declared a weapon of Bush's destruction. Laughing

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Is Chirac to be believed?

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