Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 11:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

"Shame in their hearts?" I don't think so; they are oblivious to their push for discrimination against gays and lesbians. They believe they are doing god's work.


Lots of people believe stuff like that, until they are shown to be wrong later. They will come to regret their resistance to equality when the world doesn't end after it is granted.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 11:44 am
@Cycloptichorn,
A little investigation about "developed" countries that allow gay marriage has not imploded.

Quote:

Nations that recognize same-sex marriage:

Canada
In June of 2005, the Canadian Parliament enacted a law allowing legal marriage for same-sex couples.

Belgium
The second nation to legalize same-sex marriage in 2003.

Netherlands
The first country to grant gay marriage in 2001.

Norway
Became the sixth country to legalize same-sex marriage on May 11, 2008.

South Africa
South Africa became the fifth nation to recognize gay marriage in 2005.

Spain
The fourth nation to allow gay marriage on June 29, 2005.

Sweden
On April 1, 2009, the Swedish parliament voted to allow same-sex couples to legally marry, overturning a previous civil partnership statute enacted in 1995. (get details)
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 11:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
GREAT. Why don't you move to any of those countries and leave the US alone?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 12:02 pm
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:

GREAT. Why don't you move to any of those countries and leave the US alone?


No, bigot. We will not. We will change the US to give equality to all, not just those that you personally approve of.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 12:03 pm
Why should he, woiyo? Notice that more and more states are enacting gay marriages and civil unions. We here in MA have had it for, what, about four years now, and the Commonwealth is stronger than ever. And it's just not a hot topic anymore. No one cares. The politicians who opposed it were almost all voted out of office by the electorate at large. Which was remarkably effective at cooling off the firebrand homophobes in the legislature.Marriage hasn't collapsed. We're still the Family Values State with the lowest divorce rate in the country. And we're just laughing at all you troglodytes standing there with your feet in the sand as the tide washes the sand out to sea (I love mixed metaphors). We ARE the US, woiyo, not you.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 12:03 pm
@Woiyo9,
Don't have to; more states are allowing gay marriage with more to come. You're the one who will be "chased" out to another country. LOL No loss.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 12:18 pm
Maine just legalized gay marriage today. That's five. And there are, what, something like another 14 that allow civil unions. You're not toast yet, woiyo, but you're definitely starting to brown around the edges.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 12:30 pm
I notice we are not on the list. That will be because legislation of that drastic a nature has to be in the Queen's Speech when Parliament assembles every year and I shouldn't think anybody dare ask her to read out the proposal let alone sign it into law.

Politicians are here today and gone tomorrow. It's a votes for nothing idea. Those who want official homosexual unions will vote for the proposal no matter what their political views and the rest of the population don't much care about it. Not yet anyway. With 20 years of it they might think again.

But I think they really ought to demand equal time in the movie steamy sex scenes first and get us all acclimatised. And in soaps.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 02:45 pm
Maine Women's Lobby

Quote:
Can’t even describe how elated we are to live in Maine, where, at every opportunity, our decisionmakers have stood FOR equality, fairness and justice.

From all of us at the Maine Women’s Lobby: Thank you, Governor Baldacci.

Here’s my favorite part of his statement:

“In the past, I opposed gay marriage while supporting the idea of civil unions,” Governor Baldacci said. “I have come to believe that this is a question of fairness and of equal protection under the law, and that a civil union is not equal to civil marriage.”

“Article I in the Maine Constitution states that ‘no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor be denied the equal protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of that person’s civil rights or be discriminated against.”

Now, it’s time to talk to our friends, family, and neighbors, about the importance of upholding these protections at the ballot box.


http://www.mainewomen.org/blog/2009/05/happy-happy-happy/

Congratulations Maine!

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 02:52 pm
@MontereyJack,
woiyo's brain has been toasted a long time ago. That's the reason why he's for discrimination.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 03:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think it's been milquetoast-ed. A rant has nothing to do with action so let's seem him stem the tide.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 03:11 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

Maine just legalized gay marriage today. That's five. And there are, what, something like another 14 that allow civil unions. You're not toast yet, woiyo, but you're definitely starting to brown around the edges.

Actually, the citizens of Iowa voted to prohibit it, and the liberals demonstrated their respect for democracy by inventing something in the constitution to disenfranchise the citizens.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 03:36 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

MontereyJack wrote:

Maine just legalized gay marriage today. That's five. And there are, what, something like another 14 that allow civil unions. You're not toast yet, woiyo, but you're definitely starting to brown around the edges.

Actually, the citizens of Iowa voted to prohibit it, and the liberals demonstrated their respect for democracy by inventing something in the constitution to disenfranchise the citizens.


Oh really? When did the citizens of Iowa vote against marriage equality? I googled the matter and cannot verify your statement. Maybe you're right. Can you provide a link?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 03:40 pm
@Brandon9000,
It's old news now and the Iowa SC is conservative lead and it was unanimous -- perpetuating the conspiracy theory that liberals are forcing gay marriage on voters is worthless -- you cannot vote something into a state constitution that is in conflict with the Federal constitution:

Saturday, April 4, 2009

Iowa Supreme Court Upholds Equal Protection In Gay Marriage Ruling
The photo to the left shows Dawn and Jen Barbou Roske with their two daughters. If any photo ever reflected family values and devoted parenting, this one does. Dawn and Jen were plaintiffs in a challenge to Iowa's ban on same-sex marriage.

The Iowa Supreme Court did its job in declaring discrimination against same-sex couples like Dawn and Jen unconstitutional. It confirmed the principle of equal protection under the law, as guaranteed in the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution:

Same-sex couples will be allowed to marry in Iowa by month’s end, after a ruling on Friday by the Iowa Supreme Court that found unconstitutional a state law limiting marriage to a man and a woman.

...“We are firmly convinced the exclusion of gay and lesbian people from the institution of civil marriage does not substantially further any important governmental objective,” Justice Mark S. Cady (appointed by a conservative Republican governor) wrote for the seven-member court, adding later, “We have a constitutional duty to ensure equal protection of the law.”

...“If gay and lesbian people must submit to different treatment without an exceedingly persuasive justification, they are deprived of the benefits of the principle of equal protection upon which the rule of law is founded,” the Supreme Court said in agreeing that the 1998 law was unconstitutional.

Republican Representative Steve King of Western Iowa presented the characteristic conservative response:

"This is an unconstitutional ruling and another example of activist judges molding the Constitution to achieve their personal political ends. Iowa law says that marriage is between one man and one woman. If judges believe the Iowa legislature should grant same sex marriage, they should resign from their positions and run for office, not legislate from the bench."

King doesn't understand that it is the state law he refers to that is unconstitutional, and that the judges aren't legislating but upholding equal protection. Indeed, King's logic could have been used to argue against the finding in the 1967 case Loving v. Virginia, in which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that anti-miscegenation laws, which prevented interracial marriage, were unconstitutional. There probably were those who contended that Virginia law said that marriage is between a white man and a white woman"and that the judges were "legislating from the bench."

It's significant that this new ruling came from America's heartland. Now New York and California, supposedly states that set the national cultural pace, will have to catch up to Iowa's progressive and just stance on the equal marriage rights of gay and lesbian citizens.


April 6, 2009
Iowa becomes third US state to legalise same-sex marriage
By News Editor

Iowa became the third state in the country to legalise same-sex marriage on Friday while Vermont's bill " although passed " is short of the two-thirds majority needed to override a promised veto by Republican Gov. Jim Douglas.


Last Friday, the Iowa Supreme Court in a unanimous decision ruled in favour of same-sex marriages " the third state after Massachusetts and Connecticut on the East coast. More often debated on both coasts, the decision makes Iowa the first state in the American Midwest, an area often referred to as the "American Heartland," to grant marriage rights to same-sex couples. For five months last year, California's high court allowed gay marriage until November's election, when residents rejected the idea in a voter initiative. A ruling on the validity of that initiative is expected soon from California's Supreme Court.

Couples in Iowa are expected to be able to exchange vows as soon as April 24 and reports say the only recourse for opponents appears to be a constitutional amendment, which couldn't get on the ballot until 2012 at the earliest.

The Iowa Supreme Court on Friday unanimously upheld a lower-court ruling that rejected a state law restricting marriage to a union between a man and woman. It wrote in its 69-page decision: "We are firmly convinced the exclusion of gay and lesbian people from the institution of civil marriage does not substantially further any important governmental objective." The state's lawmakers "excluded a historically disfavoured class of persons from a supremely important civil institution without a constitutionally sufficient justification."

The Associated Press quoted Justice Mark S. Cady, a Republican appointee to the court, who said that excluding a group from marriage merely because of long-standing custom, can "allow discrimination to become acceptable as tradition."

Reports say same-sex marriage opponents may try to enact residency requirements for marriage so that gays and lesbians from across the country could not travel to Iowa to wed.

US Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa, urged the Legislature to do so, saying he feared without residency requirements Iowa would "become the gay marriage mecca."

Meanwhile, in Vermont, the state House of Representatives approved a bill last Friday legalising same-sex marriage. The bill passed the state Senate on a 94-52 roll call vote, just short of the two-thirds majority needed to override a promised veto by Republican Gov. Jim Douglas. Gay marriage supporters hoped to convince a few Vermont legislators to switch when it comes to the override vote, which could be taken as soon as Tuesday.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 04:29 pm
I guess when you think about it, the second that the first state allowed gay marriage was the second that we knew the tide would ultimately change.

The argument against; the argument that this was about protecting marriage, could never fair against the blatant observation that gay marriage in those states in no way threatened anyone. I suspect that the retreat will be to an argument about public schools.

The whole I-don't-want-my-child-to-learn-about-gay-marriage-in-schools-because-it-violates-my religious-freedom stance will be the fight they try to make, and will lose.

T
K
O
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 05:27 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
The whole I-don't-want-my-child-to-learn-about-gay-marriage-in-schools-because-it-violates-my religious-freedom stance will be the fight they try to make, and will lose.


That's an assertion. It might be because they don't want to explain what happens when the happy couple gets to the honeymoon suite and, I would guess. neither does the happy couple.

The banana/milk bottle visual aid which is used in schools to explain reproduction is difficult enough for even experienced libertines. When reproduction is not on the agenda it moves from biology to psychology. Which is worse than the cat among the pigeons.

The religious freedom stance is based on that. You are confusing the form with the substance. The form is a face-saver. Polite. Euphemistic if you prefer.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 09:05 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:

I guess when you think about it, the second that the first state allowed gay marriage was the second that we knew the tide would ultimately change.

The argument against; the argument that this was about protecting marriage, could never fair against the blatant observation that gay marriage in those states in no way threatened anyone. I suspect that the retreat will be to an argument about public schools.

The whole I-don't-want-my-child-to-learn-about-gay-marriage-in-schools-because-it-violates-my religious-freedom stance will be the fight they try to make, and will lose.

T
K
O

And, according to you, how the citizens vote is irrelevant, and if it disagrees with your position, your side will just arrange for the vote to be anulled.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 10:00 pm
@Brandon9000,
The citizen's vote is not irrelevant 9000, but it does have limitations given the other things that the citizens have voted on and the states have ratified.

A successful vote to put in place things like prop8 contradicts other things in our constitution, so what about the people who fought for things like the equal protection clause? Can people vote to put things in place that contradict it?

Your thoughts are appreciated, but ultimately juvenile in their development.

T
K
O
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 12:05 am
@Brandon9000,
Debra Law wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

MontereyJack wrote:

Maine just legalized gay marriage today. That's five. And there are, what, something like another 14 that allow civil unions. You're not toast yet, woiyo, but you're definitely starting to brown around the edges.

Actually, the citizens of Iowa voted to prohibit it, and the liberals demonstrated their respect for democracy by inventing something in the constitution to disenfranchise the citizens.


Oh really? When did the citizens of Iowa vote against marriage equality? I googled the matter and cannot verify your statement. Maybe you're right. Can you provide a link?


Brandon: Have you found anything to substantiate your statement that "the citizens of Iowa voted to prohibit it [i.e., marriage equality]"?

Brandon9000 wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:

I guess when you think about it, the second that the first state allowed gay marriage was the second that we knew the tide would ultimately change.

The argument against; the argument that this was about protecting marriage, could never fair against the blatant observation that gay marriage in those states in no way threatened anyone. I suspect that the retreat will be to an argument about public schools.

The whole I-don't-want-my-child-to-learn-about-gay-marriage-in-schools-because-it-violates-my religious-freedom stance will be the fight they try to make, and will lose.

T
K
O

And, according to you, how the citizens vote is irrelevant, and if it disagrees with your position, your side will just arrange for the vote to be anulled.


Where did TKO state that "how the citizens vote is irrelevant"? The point you are missing is that the citizens can vote for anything they want. But, if they vote to enact an unconstitutional law, those persons who are adversely affected by the unconstitutional law have standing to petition the court for redress of grievances.

If the voters enacted a law that provided that all persons named Brandon9000 shall be denied the civil rights that everyone else have, then you may petition the court for redress. After all, our form of government is not a pure democracy--it's a constitutional republic that has built-in checks and balances to protect individuals from the adverse consequences of majoritarian oppression.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 08:44 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:


And, according to you, how the citizens vote is irrelevant, and if it disagrees with your position, your side will just arrange for the vote to be anulled.


How did we 'arrange' for the mostly Conservative Iowa SC to annul the 'wishes of the citizens?' In detail, please.

The truth is that Equality is not a Liberal or Conservative idea but a well-understood legal one. When those who are trained in the application of laws take the question of equality up, it is difficult for them to side any other way than with our position. To you, this is going around the 'will of the people.' Tough ****. The people are not allowed to pass laws that self-violate the Constitution, with impunity.

Cycloptichorn
 

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