Prop 8?

@BillRM,

Why is the production of children the only criteria for marriage?

Your analogy of a car vs humans shows you understand very little of nature.

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@BillRM,

By law, how many children must you have to get married? How long after getting married does the law demand that you have a child before it revokes your marriage?

If now you want to talk about the potential to have kids, why can't we talk about gays adopting?

"You don't raise children so you contribute less to society"
"But, I'd love to raise a kid. I've got a good home. Can I adopt one?"
"No. You're gay."
"But if I could help raise homeless children, I'd be helping out; I'd be contributing."
"Yes, but I can't let that happen."

It's pretty circular argument. You think gays don't deserve the marriage because they don't do X, and Y. Many people who can do X but choose not to can get married, but not gays. Many people who don't do Y can get married, but not gays. Gays can't do X without science. You want to prohibit them from doing X. Gays can't do Y, because You won't let them. You'll let a straight couple who plans to do neither X or Y get married, but you won't let gays do it when they can and are willing to do either or both.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest, Have you ever heard of Bob Bodsky? I met him and his wife on the 10-day Mexico cruise in October, and we spent some time together with a small group including my roommate who are old friends to the Bodskys'. Bob suggested I get his book, "On The Cutting Edge" through Amazon, so I ordered it before my trip to Bhutan and India in November, and just finished reading it last night. Bob's educational background is in Aeronautics, and earned his PhD in Engineering at NY University. He started programs at USC and Iowa State University on Astronautics where he was a professor. He also worked on nuclear weapon's design on the same weapons that I worked with during my stint in the US Air Force in the late fifties, and he was also a pioneer in spacecraft design. He now lives in Southern California, and I've received several emails (including one today) from him since we returned from the cruise.

Have you heard of him?

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@Diest TKO,

As a class that where children are born into not into gay relationships.

Not all members of the class of heterosexuals couples have children but that fact is meanless when you are talking about granting benefits design to increase the likelihood of long term relationships in order to raise children to a group that does not produce any children.

When science somehow allow gay couples to produce children and they do so in some numbers then talk to me about their rights to benefits that are design for hetrosexual families that are the engine for creating and raising the next generation.

Oh the equal treatment clause of the constitution had been refer to as a mean of defending the idea of gay married however the equal treatment would also apply to not having wealth removed from the rest of us and turn over to gay couples for PC reasons alone.

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@BillRM,

BillRM, You will never understand the concept of "equal rights" under the laws of this country.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

This is not an issue of equal rights as no ones rights have been proven to be violated.

1 Reply

@Woiyo9,

You're just blind to your own prejudices.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

As a class that where children are born into not into gay relationships.

???

BillRM wrote:

Not all members of the class of heterosexuals couples have children but that fact is meanless when you are talking about granting benefits design to increase the likelihood of long term relationships in order to raise children to a group that does not produce any children.

It's only meaningless to you because you don't want to have to address it. For that matter, there ARE homosexuals who are raising children right now as we speak, the circumstances are different, but the fact remains that they are raising children.

BillRM wrote:

When science somehow allow gay couples to produce children and they do so in some numbers then talk to me about their rights to benefits that are design for hetrosexual families that are the engine for creating and raising the next generation.

Then if this is your beef don't grant homosexuals the privileges and benefits from the state about childbirth yada yada, but grant them those rights that come with marriage independent of childbirth.

But you don't have to do that do you? You know why? You don't get a child tax credit if you don't have a child and that applies to whether you are married, single, gay or straight.

It's not like a married couple can use their married status to get a child tax credit even if they don't have kids. Are they being denied anything?

BillRM wrote:

Oh the equal treatment clause of the constitution had been refer to as a mean of defending the idea of gay married however the equal treatment would also apply to not having wealth removed from the rest of us and turn over to gay couples for PC reasons alone.

What wealth? What are these resources you'd be giving to them? This is the 3rd time I've asked this. When do you plan to answer?

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Gay marriage: History, emotion collide in court

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20081210/NEWS/812100370

Quote:

Both sides of the gay marriage debate clashed Tuesday in a historic Iowa Supreme Court battle over the meaning of marriage and the long-term effect of allowing same-sex couples to wed.

The decision now falls to the high court, which must choose between the wishes of committed gay couples and the concerns raised by supporters of Iowa's decade-old marriage law.

A ruling is expected next year....

The Iowa Supreme Court appellate proceeding can be watched on the video recording on the website posted above.

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@cicerone imposter,

Yea, whatever. When you can honestly understand the real issue, get back to me.

1 Reply

@Woiyo9,

You're the one who doesn't understand the "real" issue; it's about equal rights without the hindrance of homophobics like you!

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

as if we allow equal rights to all.....we deny rights on the basis of race, sex, class, actions and beliefs, so denying rights to Gays would not abnormal or out of character for Americans. That gays should have equal rights is not a forgone conclusion. You seem to have reached your own conclusion but as a society America has clearly not. Name calling is not helpful, it is belittling the opposing view. It would be more productive for you to make a case for why gays should be treated with equal rights.

I am undecided, I would appreciate a good debate to help me decide which is right.

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@hawkeye10,

Once upon a time it was illegal for women to vote, it was okay to own slaves, and our government approved wholesale discrimination against the so-called "minority" classes, and that's after the Constitution was established. If you go back far enough in our country's history, even the Irish, Italians, and Jews, were discriminated against. Just because the majority approves of something doesn't make it ethical or justified.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I am undecided, I would appreciate a good debate to help me decide which is right.

Where have you been? Read the previous pages. It's not up to YOU to decide whether state-sponsored discrimination against individuals and minorities is right or wrong. It's WRONG. Case closed.

1 Reply

@Debra Law,

of course it is up to me and the rest of the people to decide what is right..... we are a government of the people, by the people, for the people.

The case that is closed is that of your mind, America though is having a vigorous debate on the subject, and what America does will depend upon what conclusions we reach.

Insulting those who don't agree with you is not a super way to win friends or influence people. You can go to your grave convinced that you are right, but America is going to do what Americans decide is the right thing to do whether you agree or not.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Just because the majority approves of something doesn't make it ethical or justified

it does however make it real, as in it really happens, as apposed to hypothetical or a theory. The gay rights crowd peddles theories on ethics and yet believes that personal morality has no place in societal governance. What hypocrites. If they want to convince me they need to be more reality based, as well as more consistent.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

What makes you think it has anything to do with "morality?" What they do in the privacy of their home doesn't hurt any one, except for people like you who attach labels to their "personal" love life.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

as if we allow equal rights to all.....we deny rights on the basis of race, sex, class, actions and beliefs, so denying rights to Gays would not abnormal or out of character for Americans.

Injustice is a real enemy in the USA, but it is not an invincible one.

hawkeye10 wrote:

That gays should have equal rights is not a forgone conclusion. You seem to have reached your own conclusion but as a society America has clearly not.

America did. Ages ago. "All men created equal"

What remains today is for us to make good on our promises; to make words into actions. It's a constant struggle, but it is meaningful--and right.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Name calling is not helpful, it is belittling the opposing view. It would be more productive for you to make a case for why gays should be treated with equal rights.

The case for why gays should be treated with equal rights? Pardon me, but that case has been labored quite exhaustingly in this thread save the several about it.

hawkeye10 wrote:

I am undecided, I would appreciate a good debate to help me decide which is right.

I question your sincerity here.

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@Diest TKO,

I question his sincerity too! He showed his card when he called homosexual acts "immoral."

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

the only reason I remember being presented for considering Gays equal is that they want to be equal and I am told that I don't have the right to not treat them equal. Right or not people are treated unequal all of the time so that argument is not persuasive, As for the first it is nice to want things, but so what, wanting as little to do with getting in real life.

You keep coming back to "created equal", what you fail to realize is that that is a spiritual statement, is is talking about equality on the infinite plane. If you can find a single statement from the founders that they believed that humans alive on this earth are equal I will consider your interpretation but not till then, because that is crazy talk. The founders were way more intelligent than you give them credit for, they knew damn will people are not equal and never can be. We have free will, some people use it better than others. We all have some degree of various talents, some people develop them and others don't. Some people have sense, others don't. Some people care only about themselves, some care about others. Some people can relate to other people and thus help build the strength of the collective, others can't or won't. and so on and so on....

1 Reply

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