4
   

What conservatives should know about Americans.

 
 
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2008 05:07 pm
Conservatives seem to be clueless about how real Americans think-- take, for example, there inability to understand why most of us support the Democrats and Obama.

Maybe we could explain it to them...

1) Americans are not stupid or mindless. Most of us support Obama because we have looked at the candidates and the issues and have decided that Obama is better on both counts.

2) Most Americans don't care about Ayers, Wright, or Khalidi. We think that the assertion that Obama is somehow subversive, or socialist are ridiculous and mean.

This whole line of argument is irrelevant (and annoying). We think that only idiots or partisans would make an issue of this.

3) Most Americans want moderate reasonable solutions to problems. Furthermore we believe that the Democrats are providing them (which is why most of us will vote for Democrats).

Most of us want a reasonable tax policy that raises taxes for the wealthy and provides cuts for the middle class. The Democrats are offering us this.

Most of us want a reasonable immigration policy that provides border security with a path to citizenship for people already here.

4) Most of us feel the Republicans are launching nastier attacks. Most of us say we don't like this, and increasingly conservatives attacks are losing elections.

5) Conservatives are going to have to face the fact that they are losing elections. This is because they are increasingly out of touch with what we, the American people, want.

Calling American people stupid, attacking us as socialists, whining about the press-- these are not a way to get the political power you crave (and apparently think you deserve).

You see, Americans are going to vote for the people, and the party, that represents our issues, our positions and our hopes.

That's what this election is about.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 4 • Views: 2,416 • Replies: 26
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Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 06:26 am
@ebrown p,
Quote:
1) Americans are not stupid or mindless. Most of us support Obama because we have looked at the candidates and the issues and have decided that Obama is better on both counts. WRONG! Most independents who will swing to Obama are pissed off at Bush for screwing things up. They will vote AGAINST the Republicans...NOT for Obama[quote]
[/color]

2) Most Americans don't care about Ayers, Wright, or Khalidi. We think that the assertion that Obama is somehow subversive, or socialist are ridiculous and mean. WRONG. The media is suppressing the argument. See the LA Times

This whole line of argument is irrelevant (and annoying). We think that only idiots or partisans would make an issue of this.

3) Most Americans want moderate reasonable solutions to problems. Furthermore we believe that the Democrats are providing them (which is why most of us will vote for Democrats).The democrats who have had control of Congress have a lower approval rating than Bush. Should Obama win, Pelosi and Reid will have a open credit card to spend and increase taxes. I predict a turnover in 2 years

Most of us want a reasonable tax policy that raises taxes for the wealthy and provides cuts for the middle class. The Democrats are offering us this.Raising taxes on 1 class and lowering taxes on the bottom end while increasing spending is an offer of doom

Most of us want a reasonable immigration policy that provides border security with a path to citizenship for people already here.Agree and NEITHER Candidate nor party is oferring up a good plan

4) Most of us feel the Republicans are launching nastier attacks. Most of us say we don't like this, and increasingly conservatives attacks are losing elections.Democrats never want to discuss their record. When one tries to debate their record, you call it negative.

5) Conservatives are going to have to face the fact that they are losing elections. This is because they are increasingly out of touch with what we, the American people, want.Wrong again. Republicans may lose this time because of one reason. BUSH!!!

Calling American people stupid, attacking us as socialists, whining about the press-- these are not a way to get the political power you crave (and apparently think you deserve).I call your ideas stupid, you ARE a socialist and the press is bias to your agenda. I agree each party wants the power to control the people and neither party deserves my support. Yet, partisans like you refuse to be objective and that is what I resent.[/quote]
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 07:41 am
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:

Quote:
1) Americans are not stupid or mindless. Most of us support Obama because we have looked at the candidates and the issues and have decided that Obama is better on both counts. WRONG! Most independents who will swing to Obama are pissed off at Bush for screwing things up. They will vote AGAINST the Republicans...NOT for Obama[quote]
[/color]
And your evidence of this is what? The hundreds of thousands showing up at Obama rallies carrying "F*ck Bush" signs?
Quote:

2) Most Americans don't care about Ayers, Wright, or Khalidi. We think that the assertion that Obama is somehow subversive, or socialist are ridiculous and mean. WRONG. The media is suppressing the argument. See the LA Times
The times wrote an article on the video MONTHS ago. No one paid attention to the article. Arguing that the video is somehow more substantial than the article is ridiculous and doesn't show suppression. It shows idiocy of those trying to make it an issue. The video doesn't prove Khalidi is a terrorist. It only shows what was already written about MONTHS ago. Let me repeat that MONTHS AGO.
Quote:

This whole line of argument is irrelevant (and annoying). We think that only idiots or partisans would make an issue of this.
You silence on this one I guess means you agree with it.
Quote:

3) Most Americans want moderate reasonable solutions to problems. Furthermore we believe that the Democrats are providing them (which is why most of us will vote for Democrats).The democrats who have had control of Congress have a lower approval rating than Bush. Should Obama win, Pelosi and Reid will have a open credit card to spend and increase taxes. I predict a turnover in 2 years
Actually, that's not true. The congress has a WHOLE has a lower approval. The democrats have a higher approval rating than Bush
http://www.pollingreport.com/cong_dem.htm Maybe you should check facts before making stupid comments Woiyo. I know I am dreaming to even suggest you do such a thing, but hey, a guy can dream.
Quote:

Most of us want a reasonable tax policy that raises taxes for the wealthy and provides cuts for the middle class. The Democrats are offering us this.Raising taxes on 1 class and lowering taxes on the bottom end while increasing spending is an offer of doom
OMG, the sky is falling because Chicken Little says it is. Nonsense Chicken Woiyo. Complete nonsense from you.
Quote:

Most of us want a reasonable immigration policy that provides border security with a path to citizenship for people already here.Agree and NEITHER Candidate nor party is oferring up a good plan
Maybe to you, but the majority of Americans disagree.
Quote:

4) Most of us feel the Republicans are launching nastier attacks. Most of us say we don't like this, and increasingly conservatives attacks are losing elections.Democrats never want to discuss their record. When one tries to debate their record, you call it negative.
What does Khalidi have to do with Obama's "record?" What does the removal of 3 reporters from Obama's plane to make room for other reporters have to do with his "record"? Most of what you post can't be called Obama's record Woiyo but rather you are doing personal smears with little evidence.
Quote:

5) Conservatives are going to have to face the fact that they are losing elections. This is because they are increasingly out of touch with what we, the American people, want.Wrong again. Republicans may lose this time because of one reason. BUSH!!!
Denial. Good for you Woiyo. Don't face what you were just told you would have to face.
Quote:

Calling American people stupid, attacking us as socialists, whining about the press-- these are not a way to get the political power you crave (and apparently think you deserve).I call your ideas stupid, you ARE a socialist and the press is bias to your agenda. I agree each party wants the power to control the people and neither party deserves my support. Yet, partisans like you refuse to be objective and that is what I resent.
Sure. .So to be objective. Provide evidence of Khalidi working for the PLO. News stories that were later retracted don't count as evidence.
[/quote]
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 08:12 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Conservatives seem to be clueless about how real Americans think-- take, for example, there inability to understand why most of us support the Democrats and Obama.

Maybe we could explain it to them...

1) Americans are not stupid or mindless. Most of us support Obama because we have looked at the candidates and the issues and have decided that Obama is better on both counts.

2) Most Americans don't care about Ayers, Wright, or Khalidi. We think that the assertion that Obama is somehow subversive, or socialist are ridiculous and mean.

This whole line of argument is irrelevant (and annoying). We think that only idiots or partisans would make an issue of this.

3) Most Americans want moderate reasonable solutions to problems. Furthermore we believe that the Democrats are providing them (which is why most of us will vote for Democrats).

Most of us want a reasonable tax policy that raises taxes for the wealthy and provides cuts for the middle class. The Democrats are offering us this.

Most of us want a reasonable immigration policy that provides border security with a path to citizenship for people already here.

4) Most of us feel the Republicans are launching nastier attacks. Most of us say we don't like this, and increasingly conservatives attacks are losing elections.

5) Conservatives are going to have to face the fact that they are losing elections. This is because they are increasingly out of touch with what we, the American people, want.

Calling American people stupid, attacking us as socialists, whining about the press-- these are not a way to get the political power you crave (and apparently think you deserve).

You see, Americans are going to vote for the people, and the party, that represents our issues, our positions and our hopes.

That's what this election is about.


So, I guess that liberals lost the last two elections because they were clueless, out of touch with real America, etc. I guess that Richard Nixon was elected, because the Democrats were clueless, out of touch, etc. The nearly half of the country who support McCain, millions of us, are clueless, out of touch, etc.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 08:31 am
@Brandon9000,
I guess when you provide some evidence that Democrats at the time couldn't understand why Americans were supporting Nixon you might be able to make that statement.

Your argument is a strawman Brandon since ebrown never said what you are arguing.

1. Conservatives do not make up all Republicans so comparing only to Democrats is not accurate. Not all Democrats in 1968 or 1972 were liberals.
2. Conservatives on this board have repeatedly argued that people supporting Obama are not capable of any intelligent reasons for that support which is what ebrown is talking about. There is no evidence of that being an argument from Democrats in '68 or '72.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 08:36 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

I guess when you provide some evidence that Democrats at the time couldn't understand why Americans were supporting Nixon you might be able to make that statement.

Your argument is a strawman Brandon since ebrown never said what you are arguing.

1. Conservatives do not make up all Republicans so comparing only to Democrats is not accurate. Not all Democrats in 1968 or 1972 were liberals.
2. Conservatives on this board have repeatedly argued that people supporting Obama are not capable of any intelligent reasons for that support which is what ebrown is talking about. There is no evidence of that being an argument from Democrats in '68 or '72.

ebrown said, "Conservatives are going to have to face the fact that they are losing elections. This is because they are increasingly out of touch with what we, the American people, want." My response was intended to ridicule that logic. I do not believe that losing an election indicates that. If it were true in this election, it would also be true for past elections when conservative Republican candidates won. It's an oversimplification.
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 09:23 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon, obviously logic is not your strong suit, so let me try to simplify. Just because firetrucks that are red lose elections doesn't mean that trucks that lose elections are red firetrucks.

But that isn't the point.

Conservatives are lashing out at views that are held by a great number of middling Americans. They are trying to pin labels such as "socialism" or "treason" on views that most Americans find reasonable.

In doing so, Conservatives are alienating and insulting the American voters that they need if they want to have any political power, or even a voice in the mainstream debate.

Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:00 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Brandon, obviously logic is not your strong suit, so let me try to simplify. Just because firetrucks that are red lose elections doesn't mean that trucks that lose elections are red firetrucks.

But that isn't the point.

Conservatives are lashing out at views that are held by a great number of middling Americans. They are trying to pin labels such as "socialism" or "treason" on views that most Americans find reasonable.

In doing so, Conservatives are alienating and insulting the American voters that they need if they want to have any political power, or even a voice in the mainstream debate.

The problem is that you seem to be saying, that because Obama is ahead in the polls, it must mean that conservatives are clueless and out of touch, when, in fact, there could be any number of other explanations. If you can demonstrate that being clueless and out of touch is the cause of the polling results, not merely that that is a possible explanation, but that it is the actual explanation, I am all ears. Proceed.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:09 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

ebrown p wrote:

Brandon, obviously logic is not your strong suit, so let me try to simplify. Just because firetrucks that are red lose elections doesn't mean that trucks that lose elections are red firetrucks.

But that isn't the point.

Conservatives are lashing out at views that are held by a great number of middling Americans. They are trying to pin labels such as "socialism" or "treason" on views that most Americans find reasonable.

In doing so, Conservatives are alienating and insulting the American voters that they need if they want to have any political power, or even a voice in the mainstream debate.

The problem is that you seem to be saying, that because Obama is ahead in the polls, it must mean that conservatives are clueless and out of touch, when, in fact, there could be any number of other explanations. If you can demonstrate that being clueless and out of touch is the cause of the polling results, not merely that that is a possible explanation, but that it is the actual explanation, I am all ears. Proceed.


But Brandon, it's not just Obama. It's our Congressional Dems as well, kicking your guys' asses across the board. The number of possible explanations starts to dwindle quickly when you look at the polling in all races up for grabs this cycle.

Cycloptichorn
cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:17 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The USA is a right centric republic. Probably always will be. Once in a while a charismatic blowhard comes along from the stupid side of the aisle and manages to win the presidency.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:18 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

ebrown p wrote:

Brandon, obviously logic is not your strong suit, so let me try to simplify. Just because firetrucks that are red lose elections doesn't mean that trucks that lose elections are red firetrucks.

But that isn't the point.

Conservatives are lashing out at views that are held by a great number of middling Americans. They are trying to pin labels such as "socialism" or "treason" on views that most Americans find reasonable.

In doing so, Conservatives are alienating and insulting the American voters that they need if they want to have any political power, or even a voice in the mainstream debate.

The problem is that you seem to be saying, that because Obama is ahead in the polls, it must mean that conservatives are clueless and out of touch, when, in fact, there could be any number of other explanations. If you can demonstrate that being clueless and out of touch is the cause of the polling results, not merely that that is a possible explanation, but that it is the actual explanation, I am all ears. Proceed.


But Brandon, it's not just Obama. It's our Congressional Dems as well, kicking your guys' asses across the board. The number of possible explanations starts to dwindle quickly when you look at the polling in all races up for grabs this cycle.

Cycloptichorn

If true, it doesn't inherently indicate one possible explanation. I take exception to ebrown's conclusion.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:22 am
@Brandon9000,
It's not like there isn't additional evidence, Brandon.

During the entire campaign, the Conservative faction has been begging McCain to be tougher on Obama's record and associations; and the more McCain has gone after Obama, the higher Obama's favorables have gone up and the lower McCain has dropped. It's been stunningly ineffective. Why is this? I mean, by reading the right-wing blogs, you'd think that people would be completely turned off by this Ayers fellow.

But it turns out that they don't give a damn. How could so many Conservatives be so damn wrong about our society, to push electoral tactics that backfired?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:23 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
The problem is that you seem to be saying, that because Obama is ahead in the polls, it must mean that conservatives are clueless and out of touch, when, in fact, there could be any number of other explanations. If you can demonstrate that being clueless and out of touch is the cause of the polling results, not merely that that is a possible explanation, but that it is the actual explanation, I am all ears. Proceed.


No Brandon... that is not what I am saying.

The Conservatives are out of touch because

- They are focusing on personal attacks rather than issues.
- They are labeling moderate economic views (where moderate is defined as "reasonable to most Americans") with tags, such as as "socialist" that make them seem extreme.
- They are alienating large segment of the American public with the idea that they are focusing on the "Real Americans" (and that people who disagree are non (or even anti) Americans).

The definition of "real Americans" seems to be Straight non-Muslims who don't speak Spanish, don't like government programs or affirmative action and don't live in cities.

The problem isn't that they like people who fit the description of "real American". The problem is that they are attacking everyone who doesn't fit any one of these traits. Of course, we get to vote, so labeling us as "socialists" or "traitors" or "anti-American" may not be smart.

0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:35 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
If true, it doesn't inherently indicate one possible explanation. I take exception to ebrown's conclusion.

Opinion, actually.
ebrown p wrote:
Conservatives seem to be clueless about how real Americans think

(emphasis added)

Can you give us counter examples where conservatives really have a finger on the pulse of the nation?
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:41 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
If true, it doesn't inherently indicate one possible explanation. I take exception to ebrown's conclusion.

Opinion, actually.
ebrown p wrote:
Conservatives seem to be clueless about how real Americans think

(emphasis added)

Can you give us counter examples where conservatives really have a finger on the pulse of the nation?

I'm not claiming that they do, only that I agree with most of the conservative positions. My point was that ebrown's self-congratulatory conclusion was unwarranted.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:46 am
@Brandon9000,
Based on what?

Other than your strawman?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:50 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

I'm not claiming that they do, only that I agree with most of the conservative positions.


there is a such a lovely range of conservative groups out there. which group's positions do you agree with?
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:53 am
@ebrown p,


When will you pontificate about what every American needs to know about those wacky liberals?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:54 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

I'm not claiming that they do, only that I agree with most of the conservative positions.


there is a such a lovely range of conservative groups out there. which group's positions do you agree with?

Well, most people are familiar with the typical conservative platform. I agree with most of it. For example, I believe that the decision to invade Iraq was correct given the information possessed when it was made. I also believe in small government. Stuff like that. Please don't ask me millions of questions designed to argue that there is no typical. I want to argue the actual topic, not waste time on technicalities.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2008 10:58 am
@Brandon9000,
Ah, so in Brandon-speak, I can say "you lose".

Excellent.
 

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